EPisode 65- Corinna Gordon Barnes
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Mel: [00:00:00] Welcome to Permission to be Human, the podcast. I'm your host Mel Findlater mother, coach, and curator of Permission to be Human, the company and community. If you're a mom, know a mom, or want to be a mom, and you crave getting out in the world to make a difference, then you're in the right place. This is a space for moms like you to connect with yourself, your purpose, and your big audacious dreams.
Because when you feel your best, you can better you, your family, and the wider world. Let's do this.
/ today we have the honor of speaking to Corrina Gordon -Barnes. And I loved this conversation because it's really bringing the dream back to the family. You know, so often on this podcast, we're talking about this big audacious dream. And it's outside of our house and Corrina's big audacious dream was to be a mom. And to have a family and all the [00:01:00] challenges that, that threw her, she really had to work for it.
So this is such a beautiful story. Just a heads up that there is. Some speak of stillbirth in this episode. So please get yourself somewhere safe. If you're okay listening to that. Here's her bio. Corrina Gordon - Barnes is an executive coach with 18 years of coaching experience. Creating a family with her wife was her biggest dream. They're deep in the trenches of parenting with a two-year-old and a four-year-old and they always honour their first son who was stillborn.
With her coaching. She wants to resolve tricky relationship dynamics. Especially the, should I stay or should I leave dilemma? So welcome to Corrina and enjoy.
Mel: Okay. Hi, Corrina. Hi, Mel. Great to be with you. It's so good to have you here. We were just saying in our little hello before this that it has been quite a [00:02:00] while. I think we maybe chatted three ish years ago, but life has had quite a lot in it since then. And we lived in near each other in England when I was there for 14 years, which is crazy to me.
But, so, so welcome. I'm so excited to, to, on a personal level, just get to chat with you. But to also share you with the world because you have such amazing stories, both in your personal life, work life, and in all that you're doing. So welcome.
Corrina: Thank you. And I love that you've moved because I can come visit now, rather than when people are local, you see them.
When they're far away, you can go visit them.
Mel: Totally. Yeah, we actually have a suite, just saying. Yeah, totally. Excellent. Well so we always start with the question of who are you? Who's, who's Corrina?
Corrina: I'm 45. I just turned 45. I did a, I did a 5k on my 45th birthday and I [00:03:00] entered that new age category. Kind of felt significant, like, yes, now I'm in the next, I'm in the 70s and 40s.
Mel: Yeah, I'm going to interrupt you because I've, I've just, Because I think it's really funny. I also did a 5k on my 41st birthday that I just had last weekend. It was like a foam run style one with obstacles and stuff, but it was a 5k.
Corrina: Oh, wow. Okay. No, there were no obstacles apart from my four year old son did the first a hundred meters and last a hundred meters with me.
It was that trade off of like, Oh, I would like to beat my personal best, but how sweet that he's going to run with me. So. So that's, that's the next thing I am. I'm, I'm a mum. I'm a mum of a four year old and a two year old a boy and a girl. And we also have a son who was still born prior to our four year old.
So we have, yeah, we have three children. I am a wife. I have been with my wife for 20 years. Which I don't think I'm old enough for that, but obviously I am. And and I'm a coach. [00:04:00] I am an executive coach. I work with leaders and my particular passion is relationships.
Mel: Yeah. So much good there. But I, what I, what I really love in that introduction Well, is all of it, but I love that you also introduce your, your youngest son and in such a like, you have three children because not, that's not necessarily what culture is used to or, or what people do. I don't know if you want to speak to that a little bit and like, why, why?
Corrina: Yeah, we have, we've always been so clear that Alfie made us parents we became parents. I became a mom when I was pregnant with him, when he was. Inside me and had that we started that journey together and then when he died inside me, and then I got to hold him, and I got to, I got to advocate for him as we [00:05:00] went down the path.
Why did he die and what happened and all of that so that identity of mom was born then.
Mel: Yeah.
Corrina: Having, having two living children has in many ways eclipsed. The, like the daily reality of parenting him just because they're so busy and they're so, so often it feels like I have two children because they're running around demanding snacks or needing to have their teeth brushed, but I absolutely am a mom of three, three gorgeous children.
Mel: Yeah. That's beautiful. I can we can only imagine what that journey has been like to get to the point where you can say that so clearly. I think that's just, and it's so important that, that you are, and I will put a little like trigger warning at the beginning of the episode and things like that for people who maybe aren't ready to go there, aren't in the, [00:06:00] the right position, they're driving or whatever.
And I think it's It's so important that it's spoken about in that way that you are a mom of three and life has brought you this, this journey. And I imagine it was full of grief and learning and growth and everything in between.
Corrina: Yeah. And we talk about Alfie to our kids all the time. We were actually walking through through the hospital building where, where all the children were born, with Toby and Jesse, with our, our living children.
And we just pointed down the, the corridor to, that's where you, you were all born, you, you three were all born. And Toby just really loudly in this hospital corridor said, Alfie died. He died. He died in you. He died, didn't he, mama? And like people walking past, you can kind of see them and they're like, Oh, this is, this is, it's, it's uncomfortable for people.
And yet it's so our reality that it, it doesn't, it has sadness. Obviously it [00:07:00] has deep grief and we've been on that deep grief journey, but it has so much beauty and so much significance. And it's, it's so real. And so for the our kids to grow up with that, Knowledge that there's a, a brother that they have that they don't get to play with, but that's absolutely part of our family and loved and cherished in many ways shaped us.
Yeah, that's our, that's our family story.
Mel: And it's such a beautiful gift to give to your living children. This, this experience of speaking about it as if it's life and there's no shame in it. There's no it, it just is. And that, that is a beautiful gift to give to a child as one of the things that humans very rarely like to discuss is death in general.
Right? Yeah. So,
Corrina: and that they grow up knowing that, pregnancies, babies aren't guaranteed. It is that, it's that that general sense [00:08:00] of life as being this gift that you don't know how long it's for and well, how it's all gonna work and we don't control it and it, so it kind of. I guess it sets up for them as well, just to be with what is here with you, knowing it could go at any minute.
It's precious when it's it's precious when it's here and when it's gone.
Mel: Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful. Amazing. So, this, I, we could talk about this for an hour if, if I'm honest. Because I think, I think there's so much there and I, and I know that actually you have spoken about this quite a lot in, in other places.
And I wonder if there's some podcast episodes maybe you could give me afterwards or spaces that people could go if they're, they're wanting to dig into that a bit more, whether that's for their, for their own personal life journey or someone they know or just out of interest. If you're happy, we'll, we'll [00:09:00] grab that at some point and I'll, I'll pop it in the show notes.
Yeah, and that might come up more in this conversation. That's totally fine because that's a big part of your journey, right? And So I'm really curious we we often talk Through what people's big audacious dreams are for the others listening to this podcast And I'm curious of what your answer would be to what is your big audacious dream?
Corrina: Well, I've achieved much of the audacious dreams that I thought probably wouldn't wouldn't ever happen. They have. So my my biggest audacious dream really was around having a family because My wife and I weren't going to have a family. We had decided not to we would then together for 15 years, not having a family.
And then as 40 approached for both of us she's a couple of years older than me. We, we realized it was a dawning realization [00:10:00] it wasn't a sudden one, but we realized, oh, we actually want to have a family. And, and so our age was against us. Being two women, obviously, logistically, a little more challenging.
And the really audacious way that we wanted to do it was we wanted to have us both be, biologically, mothers. So we the dream, and this was a dream that our first, the first clinic we went to didn't have the technology to support, was one of us being the egg mother. Donating mother, so the genetic mother and the other of us being the carrying mother, the gestational mother.
And so we, we had this dream, we had this vision of that and yeah, the, the, our local clinic just said, no, we we can't do that for various reasons. And, and I remember so distinctly, there was this moment I was actually in we have a a walk in wardrobe, which sounds really grand, but it's not, it's just a small room that's our wardrobe.[00:11:00]
And I remember just kind of getting the news that we couldn't do it that way. And kind of crumpling to the floor and crying and just being like, but, but that's how we do it. That I was so crystal clear that that was the dream. I couldn't believe it wouldn't happen like that. And it wasn't like in the stages of grief, that, that kind of denial phase.
Mel: It
Corrina: wasn't that it was like, no, but this dream is going to happen. And so I was kind of crumpling in like, this is not how, no, but this isn't, you That's not what's happening in my head, it's not what's happening outside there. So, we did find a clinic that could, could do this. And then, so that's the way we've, we've done it.
So we, we have made our children, they, they look like mini Sams. But they they were carried by me, and they've been, been breastfed by me. We've both really had our bodies poured into making these [00:12:00] children. And yeah, there are a lot of kind of funny stories that go with that in terms of, I don't know, strangers say, Oh, they're really, they're really tall because they are really tall for that age.
And, and I say, Oh yeah, my wife's my wife's grandfather was really tall. That's where they get it from. And they look at me and they're like, You can see them thinking that's not how it works. Have her dreams, you carried it. But it's like, no, we did. We did that. That is what we did. So yeah. So that was
Mel: That is amazing that you were so persistent that this is, like, this is the dream and this is the way we want to make it happen.
We're going to ask as many people as we need to, to, to find the right place for that. And I can imagine I can, as someone who has had IVF myself and then had a natural non IVF baby as well, I can kind of see, and I've had a C section and [00:13:00] natural birth, so like, I can see how both of you, your bodies will have been affected by this.
Right? Like the IVF journey and all the drugs and all the things and as well as the actual, like, carrying of a baby and birthing a baby. That's, yeah, you're definitely both part of that process and it's kind of both beautiful and horrifying that you've both had to go through it.
Corrina: Well, I, I, I know who she went through IVF herself as a, as a heterosexual woman kind of was kind of, I guess a bit envious that I only had to do part of it and Sam had to do the other part of it. And there was a kind of almost like a baton hand, well, there was a baton handing over moment and an embryo handing over moment where it was like.
You've done all the injections. You've done all of that egg collection. And then, but now you're off the hook and now I'm on the hook. And then I, yeah, I went on that journey too. Yeah. And there was another, another strand of this, [00:14:00] which might be interesting for your, for your listeners is that I really, really wanted to keep breastfeeding Toby.
through the process of then transferring the embryo that was, that would become Jessie. And I knew that our clinic had a very, very hard line that, no, you cannot do that. You cannot conceive while breastfeeding during IVF. And again, it was that, like, that deep knowing in me, like, this is a, this is a dream.
That, that feels true to me. Like, it feels like it will come true that that is how I want to do it. And so even when everyone's saying no, it's like, there's always a little, there's a side door somewhere. If you've got that really strong dream, I feel like there's a side door somewhere. And I discovered a Facebook group, actually.
Which was something like, I don't know, breastfeeding through IVF or something like that. I went on this group and really got the science and the data and people's real life experiences. And I was able then to go back to [00:15:00] our clinic in a very respectful, informed way, show them what I'd found, argue our case, and by some kind of miracle they okayed it.
And, and we, we went ahead. I know for a lot of people they kind of hide they kind of start, they decide that the only option is to lie to the clinic. And, and I was so grateful that I didn't have to do that, that it could be very much in the open. And then, and so I breastfed Toby through, through the conception process with Jesse in the first chunk of time of being pregnant with, with Jesse, which again was a dream.
It was a dream come true.
Mel: Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't
Corrina: ready to stop that. And I wasn't, and I was ready to have my next child.
Mel: Yeah. Yeah. And you listened to that intuition that you had that this is, this is the way, like, I really want to make this work. Right. And it will work. And you're right. It did work. Right. And, and maybe it doesn't for everybody, but it's, [00:16:00] it's like IVF doesn't for everybody, but you you, had this dream and you're like, I'm really, I'm going to find the side door, as you say.
Right, this way, this way in.
Corrina: And to have the courage of your convictions, because in both cases, so the shared motherhood, the reciprocal IVF piece, and the breastfeeding through IVF piece, there were lots of very intelligent people saying, you cannot do it this way. It is not whether it's not going to work, it's not safe, whatever they were saying.
And it does take a lot of courage and a lot of conviction and. Believing in your dream and believing in that you have this vision to say, I hear all of that and I'm still going to stand by this. Even if it doesn't work, I'm going to stand by, this is how I believe it's going to work for me.
Mel: And you went and you got the science and you got the knowledge and you said, okay, like I've got this now let's have a discussion.
Right. Yes. Yeah. I can really relate to that from the [00:17:00] perspective of my second birth. I, cause the first one did not like, The professionals were not acting in a way I was, would have hoped we made decisions that I wouldn't have made. And in the second one, I was like, I want all of the knowledge. I want to know that this is my choice to do these things.
I want the science behind it. So I can have logical, like real conversations with the doctors about the risks of a variety of choices. And you can be like, well, I really want this one, but you're saying it's unsafe, but actually. The risk of this outcome is actually higher, which is more likely to happen if this happens and it's having that.
And I just felt so much more empowered in my body and my birth was so much better because of that, I think, right? Like, yes, yes. And I think we can relate this to any big audacious dream, right? And to, and to the parenting. journey. Like, there's so many times that I go into a doctor's office with my child, or with myself, but especially [00:18:00] with my child, and I, I'm concerned that the doctor will think that I'm just, just some mother who's overreacting, quote unquote, right?
And I have to like, Crime myself to go and have that conversation and say no this I know that this is the case I know that this is not the way my kid normally would be and I can't always explain exactly what's different But I trust my gut And I encourage every person mother out there to trust your gut like especially when it comes to health stuff Yeah.
Oh, what a journey. What a journey. Right. Yeah.
Corrina: And it is, I, I work with, I do a lot of parental transition coaching. That's one of my favorite journeys to go on with someone because we will meet before they go on maternity leave. So in that maybe late stage of [00:19:00] pregnancy, when it's all unknown what's going to happen.
And then I meet with them during leave, when they're starting to think about coming back, and then when they're back from leave. And it's like that identity of becoming a parent has, for so many people, strengthened a real sense of, I can trust myself. Like so many stories I hear of being a parent has made me so much more confident at work.
I trust myself. I know My God, I'm so powerful. I'm so, yeah, like becoming kind of a trustworthy person within themselves. It's a really, really profound journey to watch.
Mel: Yeah. I'm like, I'm my, my mind is actually spinning right now. I'm like, that is such an amazing role to take on because to be able to see through all those different phases and be that support person that I honestly think Every [00:20:00] person who becomes a mother could really use no matter, no matter what happens on that journey.
Right. Because it is really kind of cracks our life open, right. In a boat, most beautiful way and a most challenging way to figure out like, who are we now? Who are we on this journey? Who were we before? What parts of us is still that person? And who are we now? Because of. Everything we're learning along the way, right?
Yeah.
Corrina: Well, so many times I'll often ask a client something like, when you go into that difficult meeting with your line manager, or you have that tough conversation with your, your colleague what could you draw on what's maybe like a moment when you most felt that strength and that clarity and that, kind of having your own back or whatever.
And so many times they'll say it was in the birthing pool, or it was that moment I chose to have a c section, [00:21:00] or it was that moment that I sought, I don't know, breastfeeding support and got it, or it was, it'll be some moment from within their parenting journey, often a very visceral part of parenting, because often up until then these are very intelligent, ambitious, women and men that I'm working with.
But they'll have been living from their very, very clever brain all this time. And there's something about that, the, journey into parenting that has gone, right, let's go right down to your feet and your your uterus or your pelvis or some part of your body where you've got wisdom. And you've now got that that strength now that lives in you.
And you can access that by remembering that moment of somewhere on the parenting journey. Yeah, I really
Mel: love that and, and sometimes we need someone else to help [00:22:00] us bring that out. Like I imagine there's some moms out there going, yeah, I feel something like, I don't know what that is. Yeah. And like, I don't, I don't know when it was and I wonder what you would say to them, like how would you help them connect to that moment if they're sitting there going, I want to be that person.
Corrina: Well, often they'll be like a moment, like a scene. I've got a really clear one from a client where it was that moment where they spoke with a midwife on the phone and they said, I'm coming in now.
Like, I, this baby is coming now, even though the midwife was like, no, no, you've got ages, you've got hours. She was like, I'm actually coming in now. This baby's arriving. And arrived in the next hour or whatever it was that there'll be a scene somewhere, somewhere in there, there'll be a moment, a scene.
And it might take some drawing out with coaching or talking with a friend or, but that one moment where you had that, you touched into that power that you can then draw on for any other [00:23:00] situation. You only need one. I need one moment for that.
Mel: Yeah. Yeah. Cause we can play that back in our minds and feel that in our body.
Yeah. Beautiful. This
Corrina: is kind of like often it's, it's like, I'll say something, I'll ask something like what enabled you to say that, or where did you find that power from? And it just, often a client will say something like, oh, it just, it's like, oh, it just. It just was there. It's so natural because it was in that moment it was so inherent and so natural and there wasn't another option in that moment.
Mel: Yeah, because we're strong when we need to be strong.
Corrina: That's it. Exactly that. And when the brain won't actually serve us in some situations where it is more of a, whether it's a spiritual or a physical place that that comes from, because the brain just, yeah, it won't, it won't serve us. It won't serve us in that situation.
Mel: And like [00:24:00] the, the phrase that's coming to my mind is around like trusting ourself and how, there might be stages in our life. Like there was definitely, it was actually after moving here that I was like, I, I was on a course actually kind of coming out of being in a very hard place. 2020, we were all in hard place for a variety of reasons.
And, This coach on this, or I, I asked for a sample of something. So this teacher kind of coached me just for like two minutes, maybe five minutes. And one of the little questions she asked was because it was around, it was around success and my fear of success. And she goes, well, it sounds like there's something about trusting yourself and I just started crying.
Right. I was like, well, I was like, shoot, I don't trust myself because I didn't. And I did it. And I think we have those stages in our life where it's hard to connect with [00:25:00] the time when you did trust yourself, because generally we did at some point, like, like you say, we, we leaned into our power, we leaned into our strength and our courage.
And we have those times when that's not. That's not the case.
Corrina: Yeah.
Mel: So I love this example you're thinking, you're giving of like, let's find the, let's find the time when we did.
Corrina: Yes.
Mel: And lean into that. Amplify that.
Corrina: Amplify that. Remember that. Draw all the details out from that and use that moment to fuel all the places which are hard now.
Mel: Yeah, yeah, beautiful. And I wonder if this is a good segue into so that where we actually, I don't even know where we originally originally met, to be honest, somewhere along the way through, I think, some friends or people we knew. But at some point you were actually doing some, some work with me called The Work and helping me through some, [00:26:00] Relationship stuff, some, some inner work so I'm curious if you can tell us a little bit about, not necessarily the details of our work together, but what is the work?
Like, that's actually a phrase and a methodology and process that can be used to work together. get through this stuff.
Corrina: Yes, absolutely. So it is the work of Byron Katie. So Byron Katie, being a woman in the States, she's now, I think in her eighties, if not seventies, but I think eighties, who has found a way of questioning the thoughts that we have that cause us suffering.
And it is as simple and as profound as that, that we will have In any situation, there'll be the scene of what's happening. Like here you and I are, there's your beautiful bookcase behind you. There's my, whatever. And we're having the conversation. That's the scene. And then both you and I will have a soundtrack, a mental soundtrack that's running in our [00:27:00] minds.
And sometimes the soundtrack is very supportive and it makes us feel great. And sometimes it causes us suffering. And so in our intimate relationships, in our colleague relationships, In our relationships with our kids, it's a big place where we'll have a soundtrack, which just isn't serving us.
It's actually contributing to stress and disconnect and frustration or disappointment because the soundtrack of thoughts, it argues with reality. So let's say I am with my wife, Sam, let's say, for example. And she's doing something and it's not how I would want it to be. Maybe she's not listening to me.
For example, this doesn't happen very often. She's a very good listener, but let's say she's not listening. So my thoughts will be, she's not listening to me. I want her to listen to me. I want her to change. I want her to look at me, make eye contact, pay me more attention. And so that whole soundtrack of [00:28:00] thoughts is in argument with reality.
It's saying what is happening is not what should be happening. Okay. It's a disagreement with what is, and that is what causes all of that, me then not to be able to fully connect with what actually is present, what, how she actually is showing up, what's actually happening. At the moment, my daughter has an eye infection, my two year old, so my job as a parent is to get eye drops in her eyes.
Jesse's job as a two year old is to slam her eyes shut as tight as she possibly can and not let the slightest little bit of drop into her eyes. So, so my thoughts of course are, I have to get these drops into her. She has to open her eyes. Her infection will get worse if I can't get these drops in her eyes.
And those thoughts then will cause me fear and it will make me maybe aggressive or impatient with her. It will have me have lots of future images. Of what's going to happen, we're going to have to go back to the doctor [00:29:00] and all of that. So what the work of Byron Katie does, it's four questions. Is it true?
And can you absolutely know it's true at the first two? So let's say I say, right, Jessie's, Jessie's eyes, this eye infection is going to get worse if I don't get this, this drop in her eyes. Is that true? And I sit with that. Is it true? Yes or no? Yeah, I think it probably is like, yeah, if I don't get these drops in, her infection is going to get worse.
So I might find the answer. Yes. But in that second question, can I absolutely know it's true that if this drop doesn't go in, her eye infection will get worse? I sit for a moment more in it. I really look. It's quite meditative. I really want to check because I haven't questioned my thought yet. I've just assumed something.
So I sit with it. Can I absolutely know it's true in this moment? If this drop doesn't go in, her eye, [00:30:00] her eye infection will get worse. I find a no. I find that I can't know that for sure. And then question three kicks in, which is, well, how do I react? And what happens when I believe the thought? So when I believe unquestioningly that her eye infection will get worse, how do I show up?
I get tense. My jaw gets tense. I feel stressed. I start snapping at Sam, who we're trying to get the eye drops in together. I start snapping at her. I kind of, I'm becoming a bit more careless, I'm not, so I'm not even going to get the drop in the eye in the right place, even if she did open her eye, cause I'm getting a bit frustrated with Sam and I'm getting frustrated with Jesse.
And then, and so I'm getting stressed. I can feel my whole body tighten up. So you can just, you can just really look like what happens to you? How does this thought impact your physiology, your behavior, your words, how you show up? And then once you've seen that, you've seen the [00:31:00] cost of this thought, you can then go to question four, which is who would you be without it?
If you were just free of that thought. So who would I be? I just, again, meditate on there's this two year old, I would notice without the thought. Great that she's got a, a blink reflex that's so strong. Great that she's not going to let people invade her space. I mean, how well that will serve her in life, right?
If she's not just compliant to people trying to do things to her body, that she doesn't want to happen to her body. Who else would I be without the Thor? I would be really in a team with Sam. Like negotiating with her, like, shall I hold her, you drop, or you want to hold her, I drop. Everything's calmer, my body's relaxed.
Maybe then that, my physiology would have a, an impact. on her, on, on Jesse's physiology, on Sam's physiology. The whole thing would just deescalate. I'd feel more spacious. [00:32:00] Yeah. I could see like, it's almost like it's an option to get the drop in now. And if this particular one doesn't hit, maybe the next one will.
And the stress has gone. The stress has just gone. And I'm just left as a woman with a little bottle of eye drops. Doing the best I can.
So they're the four questions. And then once we've gone through that process we look at any turnaround. So this, this is the thing that I'm believing. Could the opposite be as true or truer? So my thought was her infection will get worse. Could it be true that actually her infection won't get worse, that that's not, what's going to happen.
And I can look for evidence of that in the situation. So yeah, that in a, in a very quick nutshell is the, Is the work and you can use it for absolutely anything you can use it for the death of someone you love, you can use it for a really [00:33:00] annoying colleague at work, you can use it for the mailman who does something you don't like anything you can use it for.
Mel: I love that. And I actually really like that example that you used because I think we can all relate very well to some thing that we really want our kids to do and they're like, Nope, that ain't happening. And it works. becomes this power struggle. And essentially what you just did is release the power struggle.
It's no longer a part of the situation. Now, does she just go and open her eye as soon as you walked to her? I'm guessing not.
Corrina: I'm guessing not. And who knows what will happen the next time we're doing it four times a day. Right. So, yeah, it was what maybe tonight's dose, as you say, without the power, who knows?
We don't. One of Byron Katie's, things she says is the don't know mind. A mind that just doesn't know what's going to [00:34:00] happen next. Even if someone has behaved, been behaving X, Y, Z up until this very moment. I don't know what's going to happen the next moment. I have no idea. I can think, but I don't actually know.
So it gives you that freedom of the past. Everything's a blank slate. Every moment is a blank slate moment. And then I can be surprised by what occurs. Maybe then I can get really creative. Like, Oh, I noticed that every time she resists me, she always rolls her head to that side. So, hey, maybe I then, I don't know.
Maybe I can just think creatively. Like maybe I then roll the drop onto the lid and it just Rolls over when she rolls that way, who knows? But I can think clearly without the thought in the way.
Mel: And you can start to think of like, so my, I imagine this has happened to everyone listening to you do that.
We're thinking of our own situation of something that has happened or will happen or we anticipate [00:35:00] happening. and working through that as you did the questions. So I related very closely from, so my son is terrified of needles. So any vaccines that, that we decide might need to happen he's like, no.
And I'm also a very strong believer in body autonomy. So I'm like battling these two beliefs all the time. So it was really fascinating to Listen to you do that process and go, Okay, actually, there's some work I can do there to be okay with the fact that you know what, we might walk away from that appointment without that time, right?
And they're gonna roll their eyes at me. And hey, that's okay. Right? And, and really work through that. So it's such a beautiful framework. And like you say, it's, it's Simple, but not necessarily easy, right? Like it's simple in
Corrina: concept. And I love the [00:36:00] simplicity. When I, in the year after we lost Alfie, I was a coach still, but I really, really leaned into the work a lot because it gave me a framework, a structure that was so simple and so orderly.
During a time when life felt very chaotic and messy and, all over the place. It was this, it was like a beautiful frame that I could just keep coming back to. And I knew that it would hold everything. It would hold, it would hold future IVF rounds. Both then the pregnancies with Toby and Jesse were very high risk for various reasons literally like multiple appointments a week kind of scans and hospital appointments.
And this structure of the work held me through all of that.
Mel: Yeah, amazing. So that's the work by, what's the name of the lady again? Byron?
Corrina: She's called Byron Katie. It's a very strange name. Her name is actually Byron Kathleen Mitchell. That's her [00:37:00] full name. Everyone calls her Katie. So. Okay.
Mel: Yeah. So people can look that up.
I know that she has quite a lot of detail on her website as well, actually. So, so do you do that? So as we start to kind of tie, tie up our conversation, I am curious, what would you give as a tip to any of the moms listening who are, in the midst of motherhood, in the midst of figuring themselves out within that?
And adding these big audacious dreams on top, what would you say to them?
Corrina: Hmm. Oh, you have a dream for a reason. We don't just have these ideas for they're not just there like whimsically. If you have a dream in your mind. There is a reason for that. It's not accidental. Just like I had that dream of this family.
It wasn't like, Oh, I had the dream and then it went. And even when things didn't go the way I thought they were going to go, it [00:38:00] didn't mean there wasn't going to be the, the fruition of the dream there. So if you have a dream, trust it, trust yourself with it. And it might not go the way you think it's going to go.
But if you keep checking back in with that, that dream, it will guide you. That dream will guide you.
Mel: Yeah, I imagine the work could be used in so many ways towards that dream. I'm like,
Corrina: yeah, I would be sat in. Do you know, I remember when I was first pregnant with Alfie and I sat down with a piece of paper, my pen, which is always the way you start doing the work.
You just write down your thoughts. And I wrote down, I need this embryo to stick. I think we hadn't even done the pro we hadn't even done the pregnancy test yet. We'd had the embryo implanted. We were waiting the 12 days. And I wrote down I need this embryo to stick. And I was like, wow, that is a question.
That is a thought to be questioned. I don't know that that's the [00:39:00] best thing for me to do. I've followed my, my dream and I've taken the steps, but I don't know that that's what I need to happen. And wow, I'm already controlling my future child. I'm already telling my child what it needs to do. Like, let me just write down any thought.
And I had this with, with the subsequent pregnancies being high risk. I would sit in an appointment and hear. I don't know that the pre eclampsia was was there and I think, I don't know that this isn't the right thing to be happening. I don't know that this baby was meant to go to term.
I don't know that. It's just that don't know mind that the work keeps pointing me back to, through all the, the rollercoaster of, of life. I just don't, I don't know what is meant to be happening for the best for me, but who knows what is good and bad, right? That is who knows, who knows the next step and I'll just trust that whatever is happening is then.
What's meant to be happening.
Mel: Yeah. Beautiful. Amazing. Thank you so much for joining us today. If [00:40:00] anybody's intrigued by anything you've talked about and wants to check you out, get in touch, do some coaching, whatever it is they want to do, where would they find you?
Corrina: So if you go to my website, kareenagordonbarnes.
com, so spelt, that is C O R R I N A, which is the Bob Dylan way. My parents were hippies. Gordon Barnes, G O R D O N, Barnes, B A R N E S. You can go there. There's not a lot on that website at the moment. I used to do loads of blogs and videos. I don't so much now, but there, there's a contact form.
So you can contact me that way. And really on social media, LinkedIn would be the place. Again, don't post much there, but I'm there. And I love connecting for anyone who is a, an Enneagram fan within your community. My instinct, so we have instincts within the Enneagram model is one to one. So I just love the one to one [00:41:00] connection.
So yeah, drop me a message, even if you just want to say, Hey, I liked what you said here, or I have a question about whatever contact form on the website or a message on LinkedIn would be great ways to make some connection.
Mel: Brilliant. Amazing. Well, do get in touch with Karina if you're at all intrigued, as you say.
And I know I'm very glad we got to have those conversations today after so long. And thank you. Thank you for showing up
Corrina: in all of it's forms. You are very, very welcome. Thank you so much for having me.
Mel: You know when you have that dream or that idea and you hold it really tight and you don't really want to share it with anyone until you have it just right until you are absolutely assured that it is exactly what you want it to be but you also know deep down inside that it is unlikely to get perfect it is unlikely to get to exactly where you want it to be unless you [00:42:00] share it with others.
It's when we share it with other people that we get the energy and the momentum. It is when we get feedback. It is when we start to iterate inside of our own minds. We need to get it out of our bodies and into the world in some sort of way. And talking to someone who will cheer you on is exactly The first step.
Now, if you can't think of anybody in your life that you would love to share your dream with in this raw stage where you're not gonna get the words right and you're worried that they're gonna come back to you and be, yeah, but, or ooh, what if? Don't share with those people. If you can't think of who to share it with, then I want to be that person for you.
Totally complimentary, I am launching the Dream Haven and it is a simple message back and forth concept where you tell me your dream and I cheer [00:43:00] you on and tell you exactly how amazing I think it is. I can be that safe space for you and your dreams to grow into whatever they're going to grow. It's going to grow.
totally complimentary. It remains your dream, not mine. And I would absolutely love and be honored by being that person who gets to hear it first. So head on over to permissiontobehuman. ca slash the dash dream dash haven. And let's get this going. Because your dream deserves to be out there in the world.
It could be a project. It could be a business. It could be the change that you really want to see in the world. It could be an adventure that you really want to go on. You got this. Let's hear about it. Again, all you have to do is head on over to permissiontobehuman. ca slash the dash dream dash haven and put your details in and you'll get a video personalized back from me [00:44:00] inviting you to take our next step.
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That is it, folks. This has been Mel Findlater on Permission to Be Human, the podcast, and I am so glad that you have joined us here today and hope that you have taken away some tidbits that will help you go away, connect with your big audacious dream, and make that massive impact in the world that you are dying to make.
If you liked today's episode, please, please, please Like it, share it. Think of one person. Think of one person that you think would also like it and send it on over to them. Let's get this out there and more moms feeling like themselves. Inspired, Dreaming big and out there. Please do head on over to find me on Facebook with permission to be human or Instagram or you can even Off me an [00:45:00] email and say hello.
Have permission to be human always at gmail. com say hello and let me know that you listened. What did you like about it? I would love to hear if you didn't like it. I don't really want to know. Just kidding. You can share that if you want. I would love to know, however, who you are. Let's connect. Let's find out what you want more of.
As always, remember that you have permission to dream big, permission to feel big, and permission to be you. You have complete and full permission to be human. For real, you do.
