Episode 60 - Mama J Love
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Speaker 3: Welcome to Permission to be Human, the podcast. I'm your host Mel Findlater mother, coach, and curator of Permission to be Human, the company and community. If you're a mom, know a mom, or want to be a mom, and you crave getting out in the world to make a difference, then you're in the right place. This is a space for moms like you to connect with yourself, your purpose, and your big audacious dreams.
Because when you feel your best, you can better you, your family, and the wider world. Let's do this.
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/ / On today's episode, we meet Jillian Mama J love. Yes, Mama J love is what she goes by and you will not only understand why that name is important, but also really dig into the conversation that mama J love. And I have about Changemakers and mama [00:01:00] Changemakers and how important they are in our world right now.
That's you that's likely you that. Is listening. And the unique perspective that Mama J love takes is that she works with mama Changemakers of color. And it's fascinating to hear her experience of that and how to move forward and giving us lots of tips. So here's the description that Jillian gives us.
She says I'm Jillian Mama J love. And I am the mum of systems change, a seasoned thought partner strategist. And coach with 20 plus years experience. With a deliberate and intersectional approach. That reflects futurist possibility, finding joy as justice work. And embodying our values as the activation for change at home. My big audacious dream is to publish a book on my healing journey and movement.
So let's hold her accountable to that one. Because it would be amazing. All right, stick around and listen to this amazing [00:02:00] conversation.
Mel: Great. Hi, Jillian.
Jillain: Hello. Hello.
Mel: Thank you for coming and joining me today. I'm really excited to have this much needed conversation with you, hear your story and uh, share with others and get them thinking. So thanks for coming. I'm excited to be
Jillain: here. Thanks for having me.
Mel: Excellent. So let's start out with like, who are you?
Jillain: Right. That's a good place to start. I'm Jillian, Mama J Love, and I am the mama of systems change and I've been on a journey, a journey of, of healing and transforming and ultimately evolving. And I'd say the, the activation of that change was definitely my journey of becoming a mama as a black queer woman.
My journey was definitely non traditional. [00:03:00] And definitely at times felt untouchable, but ultimately my dream came true and I became a mama, a very vivacious, uh, heart led, joyous kiddo who's now nine. And it's really led me to where I am now with this work of, talking about equity and inclusion in terms of systems change and.
While working with clients and organizations recognizing that I want to pour into mamas, change maker mamas, change maker mamas of color to really focus on our reparenting. As we're parenting our kiddos, because if I've learned anything from my accountability partner, yep, my nine year old, it's that, uh, yeah, you, you reflect back, you know, our kiddos [00:04:00] reflect back the trauma, the things that are unresolved.
And so we get a choice. What are we going to do with it? Right. And so that's, that's at the heart of my work these days.
Mel: That's brilliant. I have like three questions to ask within there. So we'll start with the first one that came to my mind, which is Mama J Love. Tell us about the name. Where did it come from?
Anything else you want to say about it?
Jillain: Yeah, I mean, it's fascinating. There's a, there's definitely a layered story in the name. You know, after I gave birth, at home and really got to know this other human that I was responsible for, I, recognize that I no longer wanted to separate out that I didn't want to separate out that identity.
And so it was also at a time where I was trying to figure out how to evolve my work in the world. I was no longer at a nine to five. I was trying to figure out [00:05:00] what kind of business that I want to build. And with support of folks in my community, they're like, you're a mama now you can incorporate that.
And so that was like the root of the mama part. The J represents Jillian and has definitely been a nickname throughout the years. And then, love began as my core value, and then it ultimately became my legal last name after divorce.
Mel: That is amazing. I love that so much. I love that there's a story behind that name, right?
And that you're owning, you're like, I can call myself whatever I want here, guys, this is what it's going to be. This is the the role in in life that I want to take. Yeah, yeah, it's brilliant. And it's catchy. Like, I'm gonna remember, I always remember, I'm gonna remember your name forever, right? It's
Jillain: true.
It's true. Yeah. I mean, the [00:06:00] best part is, is like, You know, also I respond to mama, right? My kiddo doesn't add the J. She has a very distinct way of saying mama. But as I think many of us have probably learned from watching Bluey, like our kids all make the same sound. So maybe it's not as distinct as I
Mel: do.
I love it. I love it. Yeah. Brilliant. So. Changemakers. Why changemakers?
Jillain: Yeah, great question. Why changemakers? You know, I think that there's a lot of binary and polarity and divisiveness happening right now. And, I've had to think long and hard about language and think about who are the folks that I'm wanting to attract.
And And calling in change makers, I'm also finding that part of the why is [00:07:00] reminding us as mamas that we are the change makers in our home, that when we think about a system that's within our control to you. The molds and form and co design with our partners and our kiddos. It's our family. It's the family structure.
It's our familial relationships. It's our mental models around family. And so I'm, I'm on a mission to, to connect with mamas who are, want to support Changemaker Mamas that are calling themselves Changemaker Mamas because Our systems and our relationships need change and I think that framing sets us up as knowing we're aligned partners, right, and seeing that change is possible.
Mel: That's brilliant. I love that. So changemakers is a word that's been I've been using it for quite a few years [00:08:00] as well, and any programs that I've been that speak to Changemaker, I'm like, oh, you're talking to me, right? Which is amazing. And I'm kind of shied away from using it a lot in my own work, so I love that you're leaning into it, and what I also love is that you're, You're leaning into the fact that change making happens within our home as well as externally, right?
So like if you're a mom, you are, you are changing the world through your everyday actions, especially if you make them intentional, right? Exactly. Yeah. So that is, uh, I love that. I love that you are doing that. Yeah.
Jillain: And I love that that's our link, right? That that's what brought us together, right? Seeing that within each other and wanting to have that conversation that, yeah, we get to make change in our, in our home and our families.
And it starts with us. You know, I think it's easy, especially with all that's happening in [00:09:00] the world to feel like we have to change what's happening out there. And I think the first place we get to start is in our own home.
Mel: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Excellent. Okay, so the other phrase or word that you used was systems, systems changing or system changes, how you can say it again in the, in your way, but I'm curious.
What you mean by that?
Jillain: Yeah, for sure. So the phrase that I used was systems change. And again, this connects to my own evolution and work. Really from a beginning of a deep dive when I was an undergrad around Title IX and gender equity and really recognizing the differences between women's and men's sport programs at my university which we're seeing now more so with the [00:10:00] spotlight on women's sport and basketball in particular.
So that's where my journey began and then it evolved into. Social justice and bringing in that racial justice and really evolving into intersectionality. And I would say that's where I began seeing myself within the system as a black, queer woman. And then, you know, with everything that's happening with DEI as an industry, as work in organizations, it's really, at this point, being politicized.
And, you know, you can read two to three headlines a week about either how it's dead or not working or folks are divesting from it. And so, I had to sit in the dark and be like, how am I going to keep doing this work when I know it's needed? It's not going away. But clearly that phrasing, us being at that level where it's become [00:11:00] a buzzword and it's, it's being weaponized, I had to think about how to truly talk about the work I do.
And so for me, I define systems change as being really three layers. It's the structural, It's the relational and it's the mental models. And the mental models is where we actually have the most control of shifting and evolving. And I think that's actually where, you know, the deep personal transformation can happen.
But it's, that's how I would define it.
Mel: Brilliant. And just for those who maybe aren't from the States or aren't aware in this space of what DEI means, can you explain that one?
Jillain: Yes. So it's diversity, equity, and inclusion. I think the, the way that I feel like it supports us to really think about it is, you know, diversity is, is making sure the [00:12:00] table looks You know, like the world we want to live in that reflects the population, uh, perspective all the various identities, right?
And so it's making sure that's represented. A lot of conversation around representation. Inclusion is making sure that once all the folks are at the table that they feel that it's, And when we're talking about safety, I'm, I'm really wanting to name psychological safety that they feel safe to, to be able to show up and do their best work.
And then equity is where we really begin to look at the structural differences and gaps of Where, what, what's, what is the data showing us? Oftentimes that's what it's looked like for me. That equity conversation coming in and release and making, seeing a difference between racial groups, gender groups, [00:13:00] sexual orientation, right?
It all kind of depends on how you disaggregate the data. And then I also add justice into the mix because I do think, to me, that's like the pinnacle that, you know, we get to experience justice in our lives, and I think for a really long time I struggled with justice, based on, you know, our ancestors who led the way and said, it's a long arc, right?
Like, we're going to be in this for a while, we may not actually see it. All the change we want to see. And that's really where intentionality came in, into my work. And this phrase and concepts that I use called intentional justice.
Mel: Yeah. Brilliant. You know what, when you're talking about equity, the other thing that came to my mind, and I think this is the accurate memory that [00:14:00] I'm having of it, but it was really talking about, equity, being equitable as opposed to being equal.
And There's this beautiful comic and I don't know if it's a comic because it's not funny, but you know graphic I suppose. Yeah Of this this and I think there were two different types of animals trying to pick an apple from a tree And like one picks the apple because it's an elephant and it can reach right there.
It's easy and the other one if it's just standing on the ground, if it's like a, I don't even know what the animal was, like a hedgehog or something, then, like, equal is like, we just gave you the same thing, why can't you get the apple off the tree? Yeah, definitely. But if we give them a ladder, well, I don't know if Hedgehog can climb ladders, but you know, then they might be able to get the apple off the tree.
And that was And that then
Jillain: ties in the accessibility piece, right? Like giving the ladder is providing accessibility for [00:15:00] the hedgehog.
Mel: Exactly. And, and with my background being more in the, the, uh, disability space, that's kind of what comes to mind for me. But I imagine, I wonder what the, I wonder what the graphic would be for more like racial inclusion and people from different backgrounds, right?
Yeah. I don't, I can't think of one off the top of my head, but it'd be interesting to, you know, see what that was, right? Yeah,
Jillain: I don't, I don't, I think the one that like, especially in the States that folks love to use, and I think it's overused is the idea of the melting pot. But I think that's not the right one because ultimately I would say it's more like a potluck because we don't want everything mixing where we don't know who we are.
I think it's really more about. We each get to bring our own dish to the potluck and show up as, you know, [00:16:00] our authentic selves ideally.
Mel: Brilliant. So what's, what's your big audacious dream?
Jillain: Oh, big audacious dream. I have a few of them for sure, but the one that's really nagging me these days is, uh, getting a book out into the world.
Mel: Ah. Yeah. Nice one. Do you have any thoughts around that?
Jillain: Oh yes, I have a few thoughts. This is, it's not a, part of the chuckle is because it's not the first rodeo that I've been asked this question or it's been my answer. And I have a couple of manuscripts so it's not as if I haven't started the process.
I think it's been every time I get to a certain place. In the manuscript, I've intuitively known like the journey isn't quite done for the, that [00:17:00] manuscript to like be out in the world. And knowing that, you know, it does have a timeline, whether you go self publishing or traditional, but like, I really want to have it be.
Like kind of the journey booked in at a certain place and it just hasn't been that yet. And so I've got like, I finally made a list of manuscripts because the, the dream has been set into a goal of having a proposal in the next six months. And I have, I think that last count I had five to six versions of manuscripts.
So there's, there's a book in there at least, right? And all of those words. So. That's, that's the goal.
Mel: Definitely. That sounds amazing. I love how specific that is. And I'm going to ask you to broaden it. Because I'm guessing whatever that book is about, is like, what's the, what's the difference you want to make in the world?
And the book might be the one [00:18:00] in the house.
Jillain: Yeah, I mean, I think it connects very much to my, you know, the lane that I'm laying out for myself, which is Changemaker Mamas and Changemaker Mamas of Color. As you were saying that, like, it's actually a full circle moment, because in one version of my manuscript, and I'm kind of like, seeing it in my mind's eye, is that I had that intention that the book was for Mamas, mamas of color, but I hadn't gotten to that language of change maker mamas and I had to do the work and healing to be Okay that I wasn't gonna be for everyone and that's that's a challenge.
Especially as A biracial woman who [00:19:00] identifies as black and comes from a white mama, you know I want to represent all the parts of myself and, I think that my journey and the healing that I've done in that vein, especially around race and relationships is, is also part of what needs to be told.
And I think I can do that now, but it took some time.
Mel: Yeah. Yeah. Is there any part of that journey from, you know, wherever you want to start until now that you'd like to share with us? Like, what was that? What was that like to get to the point where you're like, yeah, I think I might be close to being able to share this now.
Jillain: I mean, there's definitely multiple markers that pop up in my head, but I think, you know, that I think I'll, I can share two, one that's both, one that's personal and one that's professional. The personal one is, [00:20:00] divorce. So I was also married to a white woman. And just recognizing, recognizing how I had to shape shift to be in that relationship, the recognition of, like, I was thinking about this, as I was swimming this morning of, how I often felt alone, and alone in the sense that I was often an only the only black woman in the space and how even If you're comfortable, and I've been in that situation a million times, it begins to wear on you.
And at the same time, it was like Trump had just been elected as president here in the U. S., and, it became really [00:21:00] personal, you know? Recognizing that I was kind of the exception, not kind of, I was the exception in the spaces that I was in at that time, and recognizing I, I couldn't, I couldn't do that anymore, that there was like a thousand small deaths happening by showing up in that space.
And even though I wasn't ready for the fire that happens from my, my marriage ending and that relationship and the community and the friendships and the family. At the end of the day, I, I needed that fire to actually rebuild and create the life that I actually needed to be the authentic vulnerable self that, you know, many folks see today.
Mel: Brilliant. Yeah. [00:22:00] I think that's so powerful and I can, you know, I can only imagine. Because I, because I am a, you know, a white, straight woman who fits in most places I go. Pretty much everywhere, you know, unless I'm traveling somewhere. And so I can only imagine what it's like to feel that sense of, uh, aloneness within somewhere where perhaps you, you match up in other ways.
Jillain: Yeah.
Mel: But there's always this one thing that's a little different.
Jillain: Yeah. It's, it's definitely, uh, it's a lot of deep work. And I think the beautiful part that I can name is that, you know, even today I wrote that like my truth is, you know, I'm not alone anymore in the, in the life that I've rebuilt. I feel loved and held and supported in ways that.
You know, just five [00:23:00] years ago felt like a dream and so, you know, that came, that came with a lot of pain and grief and also intentionality to be here and doing the work that I am today.
Mel: Yeah. And I love that phrase that you said it a few times there, it's like doing the work.
Jillain: Yeah. It's easy to grab the book, the worksheet, the download, the, the class, the podcast, you know, all the things.
But I think, you know, a huge part of. My strength is activation. And that combination of activating with dreaming into and imagining the future. And so that really sets up this like point A and point B and in that in between, that's where the work is, right? And I think we, we have to think of our, our self care, our healing, our, uh, Ability to change [00:24:00] I think in that framing and then it's possible.
Mel: Yeah, yeah. So, I always ask for a tip at this point in time and I kind of want two tips from you. Okay? Because where I'm, what I'm thinking is, What is, what your tips would be for people who maybe feel excluded because of their race or their gender or their identity of some sort, who are mums, changemakers, have these big audacious dreams.
And one is for the, People who perhaps are like, more like me and ha, are the mums and the change makers and are white and aren't excluded in the same way necessarily in society. And I, they, they may or may not be the same tip. I'm, [00:25:00] and I'm curious, right? Yeah, you can take that wherever you want.
Jillain: I love that.
Well, I think it's important to name, like, I hold duality very well. I'm a, I'm a Gemini Sun. So that feels like it's an opportunity for me to dance a little bit. I mean, the first thing that came from, to mind was, you know, say someone that holds your identity, you know, as a white changemaker mama. I think, The tip I would give is say hi, start a conversation with the person that is different in your kids class.
I mean, I'm defining different broadly that doesn't look like you or share a language with you or, you know, maybe even would be the traditional friends that you're would connect with, right, or that you have historically. I just think we need each other now more than ever and as much as. Social media [00:26:00] is a tool of accessing a lot of things.
I think, you know, what drew me to, to you in this conversation is that, like, we need places and chances to be human, right? And to just remember, like, we're all doing the best we can. And I know having just been at a school event last night, like, it's challenging. We've all had long days. Sometimes you don't really want to talk to another parent.
But, you know, I think, At the end of the day, that's going to give you that little dose of pride, that little piece of justice, because you took that bite sized step to, to get out of your comfort zone and include, include someone new in your circle, right? Make it not just a one time event, you know, and follow up I think is a key thing even, you know That's just starting to wave and say hi You know, we still have a few weeks left in our school communities.
[00:27:00] I think that's a there's a great opportunity there And if you're hearing this in schools out make it your neighbor Because I think we need each other in these times and the more I'm having conversation around community the folks that are getting kind of the best supportive community care have either relationships with other parents and families that are supporting each other in that way.
Or it's a neighbor especially if we're thinking outside of our families. And a tip, a tip for my Changemaker Mamas of Color
in thinking. You
know, I think what's on my heart [00:28:00] is just a reminder that We have everything that we need, and to reach out to the strong mama who you think has it all together. And in many ways that tip can apply across the board. But what I know is being a black mama, I've definitely been trained to, to be the strong, resilient one.
And there are days when. You know, I hear from my, my dearest beloveds, and, just the reminder, right, that they're there is really helpful. And if you don't have that, you know, trying to think through who could be that person, and cultivating the relationship, I think we are, In a season, in a time where this is where we really get to change the [00:29:00] system and really stay within relationship with each other.
And if we're not, you know, find the ones that are supportive to where we want to go and especially the big audacious dream.
Mel: Excellent. And the theme that's coming up, I think in all of what you just said is that community and relationship and that, that that's how we change things. Right?
Jillain: Within ourselves,
Mel: within our neighbors, within our communities, within the wider world, that community relationship.
Jillain: Yeah, and it's a theme for me too. So I'm over here working on it. I'm not sharing any tips that I don't need myself. But what I've gotten clear on is that I don't, I don't want to build alone. I think we need each other and that looks many different ways. So we don't have to just be in one community that meets all the needs, right?
It can also be multiple communities, multiple relationships. [00:30:00] To help us get through these times.
Mel: Brilliant. So if someone's listening in and they're like Mama J. Love, I love everything you're saying. I'm so intrigued by the work you're doing. I want to find out some more, maybe get in touch. Where would they go?
Jillain: Yeah, so I hang out pretty much every weekday over on LinkedIn, sharing my thought partnership and things that I'm working on. I also hang out over on Instagram. And I have a newsletter for Changemaker Mamas of Color, where I, I go deeper in, in all things parenting and reparenting.
Mel: Excellent. Well, thank you so much for joining us on Permission to be Human, the podcast. I love our conversation so much and thank you.
Jillain: Yeah, thank you. The [00:31:00] pleasure.
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Mel: That is it, folks. This has been Mel FIndlater on Permission to Be Human, the podcast, and I am so glad that you have joined us here today and hope that you have taken away some tidbits that will help you go away, connect with your big audacious dream, and make that massive impact in the world that you are dying to make.
If you liked today's episode, please, please, please Like it, share it. Think of one person. Think of one person that you think would also like it and send it on over to them. Let's get this out there and more moms feeling like themselves. Inspired, Dreaming big and out there. Please do head on over to find me on Facebook with permission to be human or Instagram or you can even Off me an email and say hello.
Have [00:32:00] permission to be human always at gmail. com say hello and let me know that you listened. What did you like about it? I would love to hear if you didn't like it. I don't really want to know. Just kidding. You can share that if you want. I would love to know, however, who you are. Let's connect. Let's find out what you want more of.
I want to hear from you and I want to make it what would be useful to you. As always, remember that you have permission to dream big, permission to feel big, and permission to be you. You have complete and full permission to be human. For real, you do.
