Episode 31 - Nick Heap
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Mel: /[00:00:00]
Welcome to
Permission to be Human, the podcast. I'm your host, Mel Findlater mother, coach, and curator of Permission to be Human, the company and community. If you're a mom, know a mom, or want to be a mom, and you crave getting out in the world to make a difference, then you're in the right place. This is a space for moms like you to connect with yourself, your purpose, and your big, audacious dreams.
Because when you feel your best, you can better you, your family, and the wider world. Let's do this.
Hi, Nick. It's so good to have you here on Permission to Be Human. And we haven't actually properly chatted in at least four years, I want to say. And I met Nick. Nick is our very first male, by the way, on this podcast, which I'm actually really excited about. And coming in [00:01:00] not as a, yeah, well, coming in as not as a mother, but as someone who has, has lived life with a lot of parents and mothers and had a, you have a lot of experience, Nick, in the, just the world of helping humans.
And I know that you have really helped me in my past when I was in that position of really seeking my purpose and figuring out who I was and how that was going to work in the world. So I'm excited to have you here to go wherever we go in our conversation and help the mom, the moms that are listening as well.
So welcome.
Nick: Well, thank you for having me. I mean, it's it feels like a rare privilege and an indulgence really. So I'll do my best to be helpful. I should say, if I'm not being helpful or I'm going on too long, or you need me to change the subject, do, don't hesitate to tell me. [00:02:00] I'm a rotten mind reader.
But I'm actually quite, I will respond to feedback.
Mel: You will, and I know that listening is, is actually a topic that's close to your heart, so. Yeah. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about who is Nick. Where are you? What does life look like?
Nick: Who is Nick? Well, I'm, I'm a elderly gent. I'm 81 which isn't the most important thing about me, I suppose.
I used to be, at least if I tell my story, I used to be a scientist. Many years ago many years ago, 50, 50 years ago, yes, I had a training experience where, , essentially I realized that we could solve all the problems we had in the world. In fact, we could even create paradise. So if we just listened to each other, that that was the number one problem.
And about a week after I had this experience, I had a bash on the elbow [00:03:00] from very high up, which basically said, Hey, Nick, it's your job, mate. Get on with it. And that's been something that I've been trying to do and doing ever since. Of course, it's a big job. It's not complete. There's still a lot of people not listening to each other, but it is the most neglected skill that there is.
And it's the most important skill. It's actually the key to building effective relationships, to cooperation, to having happy families. And it's the one thing that people complain about all the time, it's about not being listened to. Yeah. So having had this realization, I actually changed jobs and became an internal facilitator for eight, six years.
I was an internal consultant with a big chemical company. And then in 1982, I was made redundant. I've been working for myself every ever since. And by A long [00:04:00] chain of, I can't remember how we met, but it was, we, we, we met 10 years ago, probably more actually, didn't we? Somewhere near there. Yeah.
Mel: I don't even know how we met either, actually.
I know the work we ended up doing together, but I'm not sure where the initial interaction happened.
Nick: I think it must've been through Lou Sheckleton, but how I met Lou, I have no idea now. I can't remember. Anyway, that's a bit, that's a bit about me. So I'm married we, we've been married 57 years. We have two grown up children.
One is gay and lives in Australia with her wife and three, and three cats and a dog and six mad chickens. The other one is straight and is Tim is married to Julie and we, and they have two, uh, grownup grandchildren of 23 and and 21. We live in Hatfield, which is a little town in the suburb.
It's sort of slightly suburban, 20 miles north of London. [00:05:00] Brilliant.
Mel: I love that. And. That just touches the surface, I'm sure, of 81 years of a, of story there, and I know that you love story too, but I, what I really want to tap into there is that listening component, and I think that's what always appealed to me about you, is that I do feel heard when I am in your company, no matter whether we're in a professional, you know, coaching type setting or we're just chatting.
You know, it's very clear that that is something that you really believe in and have worked really hard on, on doing, and I think a topic that might be worth digging into from the mother's perspective of who's listening to this, because it's definitely something that Mothers especially are not feeling listened to, [00:06:00] as that's, I'm sure there's most humans, but in the context of mums, I know I, you know, there are days that I will finish my day and be like, I haven't talked to anybody who actually like, let me finish my sentence today, because five and eight year olds don't always let you do that.
Right. And then you're so tired by the end of the day that your partner, you're just like, Oh, go away. But you know, I think that's the case for a lot of people who are raising tiny humans in this world. And. Yeah. So I wondered, you know, what you have to say about this.
Nick: Well, I mean, I've never been a mother and I think it must be very, very demanding because so tiny children do actually demand and actually need huge amounts of attention.
And I don't know what is practical to say to your eight year old, Hey, [00:07:00] I, I, look, I'd like to talk now. Well, you can just practice for five minutes, let's play a game, you listen to me for five minutes. I do remember once when I was really upset. And I, I, I said to Tim, who I think was probably about eight that or maybe a little bit younger, I was, I was really upset and I knelt down and he came and he put his arm around me.
Yeah. And I can remember that for as it was yesterday. Yeah. But in, in more sort of practical terms, the, the di the thing that gets is difficult about, about listening is everybody wants to be listened to. So quite often you can have two people where both people are talking, you know, one person is saying, oh, my four year old is driving me mad.
She's always whinging or something. And then before you know you are, the other mum is [00:08:00] saying, well, actually, my five year old is always whinging as well. Isn't it dreadful? But nobody's actually, you know, there are two people trying to talk, but nobody's actually listening. The only sensible, the only way to organize this, and it sounds, is to take turns.
So, I recommend that, you know, if a mum sort of knows that she, you know, has finally got the kids to have a nap, that that's the time when you, you phone up another mum and say, Have you got 10 minutes? And ask to be listened to, but make sure, you, maybe you won't be able to do turn, time and turn, time about.
Or, you know, at that moment, but you might be able to bank it. So, Frieda might listen to you for ten minutes or a quarter of an hour, one day, and you might listen to Frieda for a quarter of an hour. But when you listen, really pay [00:09:00] attention. And the trick, I think, and it's difficult, is not to listen to the voice in your head, which is yattering at you.
You can, you can think about what the yatter is afterwards, but not while you're there. And somebody once said to me, um, you don't listen with your ears alone, you listen with your mind. And that when you're actually paying attention, you're noticing everything about the person. You're noticing the way they're holding themselves, you're noticing the tone of voice, you're noting whether they're nodding, you're noticing the eye contact, you're noticing the moistness in the eyes if you're saying something that's touching.
You notice everything. Now, the thing that's really interesting is that when you are listened to well, you [00:10:00] actually have new, and you talk about what's happening to you or, um, or you express what's happening, you actually have new thoughts. You think better because you've been listened to. And, and you feel better because you feel valued.
So for me, listening is the most simple and practical way of how you do love because love isn't a, love isn't a, for me, and love isn't a feeling, it's a verb. It's something you do. And the simplest way to do it. is to listen. And the more you get listened to, the clearer your thinking becomes and the more easy it is to listen to other people because you've dealt with the clutter in your head.[00:11:00]
Because you can get stirred up. So if you, I don't know, you've had a difficult relationship with, with, with your dad, for instance, some, and somebody talks about their difficult relationship with their dad, and you've not dealt with your difficult relationship with your dad, it can be really hard to hear what somebody else is saying.
But the more you do this process of taking turns, the clearer you shift all this stuff and the easier it becomes to listen. Yeah. So that's, that's what I recommend. And if you. You can, there are various organizations which have the systems for organizing this, but you can do it yourself. You know, I don't know if you ever, if your mums ever get together in a group sometimes and maybe they have a crèche for the kit, you know, they part the kit.
Two mums have the job of, oh gosh, it's my turn, now I've got to look after 20 children [00:12:00] or whatever, however many there are. And the rest of you could actually get in a group and you could take turns listening to each other.
I mean, it's doable, isn't it?
You have, you have my permission.
Mel: Thanks Nick.
Yeah, there's so much to be said there. And I think the, there, so there's a couple of things that are coming to mind. One is, is around this idea that we feel clearer when we Listen, when we have been listened to, and I would, I would actually say when we've listened, we also feel better. Right? Because I've gone into, I, I used to say, and I, I have to stop myself from saying now I had this story that I told myself that I don't like small talk and meeting new [00:13:00] people in a kind of, you know, maybe meeting the moms that drop off or whatever, it was always really hard.
Right? Right. Right. And I eventually realized that it's because the conversations we were having, I was trying to like, I was always listening to the voice in my head, as you described, right? I was, I was trying to figure out what I was going to say next and try to sound, you know, smart or like relevant to the, whatever was going on.
And in the end, once I learned to listen better through all the coaching, training and various things, I was like, well, no. All you have to do is listen. You don't have to say barely anything at all, right? You just ask a good question that you're curious about, like, Oh, what was that like? Or, you know, just really simple ones.
And relationships start to build, right? Because that person feels valued because maybe for the first time in a month they've been listened to, right? So there's this [00:14:00] real, yeah, it makes everybody feel good to listen.
Nick: It does, yeah. And you know, if you ask people, you know when was the last time you spoke, you talked to 20, for 20 minutes about something was on your mind without being interrupted or about, or without somebody changing the subject?
Yeah. And except in formal therapy sessions with very good coaches or counsellors or therapists, the answer will be never. So yeah, it's rare. The other thing I'd add, Mel, is that if you really are paying attention to somebody they may be, they won't necessarily just talk. They may feel moved. You know, they may cry, they may laugh with embarrassment.
They may people get sweaty and hot if they're talking about something a bit scary or, or even shake. [00:15:00] And that, those make that, that's perfectly normal and natural and it actually is part, it can help people heal people. There's a lot of myths about crying, about tears. People think if somebody's crying, they must be hurting.
That's mostly not true. People are crying when they're recovering from being hurt from being hurt. I had a most amazing experience more than 20 years ago. I was in an incredibly supportive group and a member of the group. I said that he was, he'd heard that a, somebody called Brenda, uh, had died suddenly very young.
She'd been diagnosed with leukemia and she died in three weeks after the diagnosis. [00:16:00] And we had she, they were both moving in similar circles and I said, is that the Brenda I know? And he said, yes. And I cried because I cried like I've never cried before. It was like being washed with a white light. It only lasted for a few minutes, and at the end of it, I no longer felt sad that she wasn't around in the world anymore.
I felt how lucky and privileged I was that I'd ever known this person. So it was like being washed clean. And that's what great attention can do. So when you really engage with somebody and they burst into tears, , won't think I'm doing an amazing job because I'm creating enough safety that this healing, natural healing process can happen.[00:17:00]
But healing also happens with talking as well, and laughing, but all those processes of emotional release are healing.
Mel: That's it. That's that release, right? And tears, you know, I cry when I'm vulnerable, I cry when I'm angry, I cry when I'm really happy. Like it's a release of just a release of everything.
And generally, you know, the endorphins then come and we feel a lot better afterwards.
Nick: Yeah. Yeah. And women in general are much better at this than men because of the conditioning of males when we're very young, which is you've got to be strong and tough and whatever you do, you mustn't show vulnerability, which means we mostly feel very vulnerable and very scared most of the time as men, but we don't show it.
Yeah. Yeah.
Mel: There's certainly that cultural thing there, and, and actually, I think women do it in silence [00:18:00] a lot more than we are willing to show it still, especially moms, because we are conditioned to think that we need to be strong in front of our children. We need to hold it together and deal with that.
And there's certainly a time and place for when we let our kids into that part of our humanity, which is very important to do. But it, you know, it is important to do, right? I so yeah, it's, it's, yeah, super important. And where my mind's going right now is Around this turn taking that you mentioned and how,
how simple it sounds and yet so how hard it is. Well,
Nick: actually, it's really, really simple. I, I use an extremely high tech [00:19:00] device for this, if I can find it.
I use a kitchen timer. If I'm, if I'm doing this and you can, you just say, okay, we'll have 15 minutes each way and you use the kitchen timer. Then when it beeps, you switch, you, you have a little bit where you stop and you may ask somebody a question to get them into the present. Like, what did you have for breakfast this morning or something, or look out the window or walk around a bit 15 minutes the other way it's, you know, this isn't, this is doesn't require high tech.
The problem isn't this is, this is one of my favorite cliches, which is the problem isn't doing things Mel, it's never doing things. The problem is deciding to, there's absolutely nothing wrong, nothing whatsoever that would stop it. But you know, a name at random actually, it doesn't have to be [00:20:00] anybody particular, just tell me, give me a name of somebody, anybody, it could be imaginary if you like.
Sam. Okay. Sam. Okay. All you have to do is say, uh, Sam, I, I, I had this conversation with this mad guy I know from the UK , and he said he, he suggested we, he challenged me to try a little experiment and I'd love you to play, which is just the idea we spent. We take turns talking to each other. You talk to me for some 15 minutes or something about anything at all on your mind, and I listen.
And then we have a little break and then I talk to you. He says this is a really, really smart idea. You will, shall we have a go? If it doesn't work, we can always tell him and blame him. We need never do it again. Now that, is that really so difficult?
Mel: It is because it's vulnerable. Because it's new. Right.
It's simple, but that's where the challenge is. And that doesn't mean we shouldn't go do it. We [00:21:00] should be going out and being vulnerable and trying new things, right? Shoulds. I don't know, big fan of shoulds. But, you know, we would benefit from, from that. And I think it's that vulnerability within that that could do it.
And I almost feel like it would be easier with someone I didn't know, right. In a context, you know, then it would be to just, Go to my husband and say, let's take 15 minutes, not saying I wouldn't, I actually think that's one of the things that came to mind, I was like, maybe that's what we need to do to feel listened to, right?
Because so many relationships are struggling because we don't listen to each other, right? The question that's coming to my mind, Nick, is when you're listening, what does that look like and not look like? So if it's my turn for 15 minutes, What are you doing?
Nick: So you're talking. Yeah. You're, you're the, you're the customer, if you like. Mm hmm. Oh, I'm, what I'm doing [00:22:00] is not, is in a way a lot and not very much. So I'm I'm looking, I'm looking relaxed. I'm looking, I'm, I'm paying attention. I'm showing I'm interested. Paradoxically, I'm looking delighted, I'm not looking worried, because there's no point in me, if you're telling me something terrible, there's no point in me showing you that I feel terrible about you feeling terrible, because then we'll have two people feeling terrible, and that's not going to help.
So I have relaxed confidence in you, and I'm showing it, that you have all the resources you need to actually get, to actually solve whatever it is on your mind. So yeah that that belief is key, right? That that person has, that all of us have all the resources we need within us already to solve. Yes,
well either that or we can find them.
[00:23:00] You know, we may be that we need, we need some to work with somebody else or we need something, but we, we are capable. It's two intelligences working together on one person's problem, but the person who does the work is the person that's doing the, the problem. It's got the issue. I mean, that's not, that's not as clear as I'd like it to be, but it'll, uh, yeah, it'll do.
So
Mel: you're listening intently with, with, I would say with curiosity, that's my word, but with a quiet confidence, as you say, that they, they've got this. And you're not, so what you're not doing is what I'm, you know, reading between the lines is like jumping in with your story or adding advice, like, Oh, well, I think you should do this or, you know, [00:24:00] those kinds of things.
Nick: Sure. And of course, there's more, there's other, this is the basics, but the basic is. And really don't say very much, preferably don't say very much at all. I mean, when I'm doing sort of organized sessions, formalized sessions in any way, I have, I also will start them by sort of explaining what the rules are, which is something like Matt, if you, if you were being, we were organizing, we were having one, I'd say something like, um, Mel, this is your time for you.
You can, you can talk about anything that you, anything that you want to. I'm I, I'll, uh, I'll do the best I can to help. And, um, if you go, if I'm going too fast or too slow, let me know because I'm a rotten I'm a, I'm a rotten mind reader, [00:25:00] and, and whatever you say to me is in confi is confidence.
I won't gossip about it to anybody. I won't even refer back to you to what you've said to me unless you give me permission. So that's making it as sacred a space as possible. But latterly, I've been, when I've been doing this, I've been said, look Mel, I haven't got a question. Because any question I ask you will direct your, will direct your thoughts down a particular path.
And there's a, something which I also need to be clarified, which is, it doesn't have to be a problem. You may want to talk about something you've done that's been amazing, but if you talk about something that's amazing and I'm really interested, you'll start waving your arms about enthusiastically, and you'll get more thoughts about why this is amazing, and you'll get more thoughts about [00:26:00] how you could do something like this somewhere else, or who else you can pull into this process.
Because attention is liberating other people's attention, and we live in an attention deficit society where there isn't enough of this sort of attention. It's crazily simple.
Mel: It is, right? It is. It's crazily simple that we could solve so many of the world's problems if we simply listen to each other intentionally. And intently. Yeah. I love that. And I think, you know, when I think through our listeners here, what would that, like, what would that liberate in them? What would that give them to feel listened to?
And the word that comes [00:27:00] to mind is mattering. you know, feeling like they matter again. And so often the, the topic that comes up within that is like people searching for their purpose, like I used to be, right? Searching for as if it's outside of ourselves. And actually when we can take them through this process of feeling listened to.
And then feeling like they matter, then all of a sudden purpose comes out of us. We, we recognize what it is then, right? That it's, it was always in, in there all along.
Nick: Yeah, I've, I have if we have time, I mean, I'd like to tell the, talk to the mothers about you know, a specific process, which you can, which they can use to actually discover their purpose, which you, you know, about, you can
Mel: definitely talk about it.
And it's, you know, Nick, I don't know if you know this, but it's something that I do with quite a few people now[00:28:00] sometimes in my personal life and sometimes professionally, like people come to me and I, I use this process to help them find their purpose and let's share it with the world. You know, it is something that people can do with whoever is good enough at listening, right?
Yes. Yeah. So please share it with us. Well,
Nick: I think it should be you. Yeah. All right. Then I will. This is a process that I learned, again, a very long time ago from a guy called Chris. And it's a longish story, but yeah, basically working with a couple of guys and thinking about thinking about systems, thinking about any, any sort of organization needs to have a single mission to be successful.
And essentially what they said, well, I wonder if this could apply to a person or not. And they thought, well, yes, it might. Well, how [00:29:00] do we find out what the mission of an organization is? Well, we ask people, we, we tell, get them to tell stories about when things were amazing. So yeah, you can do that with a person.
So I think there's some really extraordinary about this process. It doesn't have to take very long. So if I'm working with Jemima, that's an imaginary Jemima. I would say to Jemima, Jemima, tell me a story. about when life was just amazing. It could be an active story when you're doing something, or you could be just sitting under a tree and it just feels perfect.
Tell me a story. And it needs to be, it just wants, so this Jemima tells a story. And then you say to, okay, what was going on then? And you, because you need, you need to get some words. So you create a list of words of what she was doing. So she was sitting or relaxing [00:30:00] or, Teaching or learning or doesn't, you know, a whole set of words, and then you get another set of words that are associated with it, which are sort of nouns, which could be sort of happiness, or they could be tree, whatever.
And then you ask this, you ask the person to three words that they really that they like. And then you work for a very interesting process of trying, of helping the person distill these words down until they find something they're excited about, where they say, aha, that's me, and you get two words in the end.
And these words can stick with you for a very long time, and they can be really powerful. They can be. If you're thinking about a new job or a new way of doing something, then you can use this, these two words, which are what's worked for you as a metaphor. And if you look back at your life, uh, you'll find, um, [00:31:00] that these two words have worked for you all the time.
Look, I better be, it's easier to grasp this to be specific. I mean, my two words are creating awareness. So I love doing this sort of stuff that I'm doing right now. Particularly when I have no idea what I'm doing and we're making it up as we go along because that's when my, I really, that's where I learned things.
I love foreign travel to meet a bit different people. My wife and I have traveled with great fortune to 50 countries, mostly off the beaten track. I love reading books and having, and which take me into new worlds where my awareness gets created. And my life's work is about helping people be more aware about some of these simple tools which they can use to make their lives richer.
And [00:32:00] as Mel says, anybody who can listen well can do this because it, and it's all open source. It's all freely available to, to anybody. And it's. It can be exquisitely powerful. And the thing that has amazed me is just how beautiful some of the pairs of words are that have come out of it. I mean would you like to meet touching souls, breathing life, um, inspiring magnificence?
Detonating mixtures,
revealing truth, lighting fires, these are, these are, and one very beautiful way of looking at this, which may not appeal to everybody that's listening [00:33:00] because not everybody appreciates a spiritual perspective, but if you do, I think this is lovely, is the idea that, When we were made incarnate the powers that be had got a job in mind for each of us as individuals.
And so we, we arrived on the planet to do a job that was necessary. And we were designed exquisitely to do this job. And as we went through life, of course we did it. And it went amazingly well. It was effortless. In fact, it, you, it's the sort of job that you can't help doing actually, whether you're paid for it or not.
Because it's just who you are. And this mechanism, method, which is called core process is a way of actually discovering what your job is. I think that's sort of clever, really. But the implications are astonishing, because the implications are that everybody is [00:34:00] special. Everybody has a role.
That includes you, it includes your children, and it includes everybody you know, and it includes the people we ignore.
If we can get this out there, this idea, the world changes.
I have one, I actually, do I have time to share one more little gem? I don't know how long I've got,
Mel: I Yeah, but let me finish on risking Sorry, I was just thinking about my process when I started to say it. Let me Let's just finish on this core process because this is something that I'm so excited you've now shared with moms and whoever else might be listening to this because it's something that really, truly has impacted me a lot.
Ah, do I have mine up? Somewhere in this room here I have a sign I woodburned. [00:35:00] Mine, which is, which is risking love and love as a verb, as you've described it, right? And humorously, I don't know if you remember this, Nick, but when we were working through it, the initial words that came out was making love because I liked the act of making and, and I couldn't, I couldn't keep that one because it just made me laugh too much every single time I said it.
And then we kind of, you know, I think we emailed a couple of times and. And, and narrowed it down to risking, which is actually more appropriate from the adventure side of me and the vulnerability and all the things that come with love. So, so that one's mine. And it's a really, I think, a really important process because it's, it's not only like you say, giving people that job and acknowledging that we all have it the way you described it to me as this is what I boasts.
What I need to give to the world, what I'm here to do, but also what I need the most, right? So [00:36:00] when I'm feeling like I'm not getting my needs met It's because I need someone else to risk love with me as well and that really impacted me in the awareness of like Oh, why am I feeling this way? Which comes down to listening often, right?
It's I need someone to show me that love through listening. Gosh Yeah. So it's a, it's a super powerful, powerful process and one that, one that I recommend anyone do. Yeah.
Nick: Yeah. I mean, I, that's, you've just given me a new insight there. I hadn't appreciated, I hadn't actually sort of cottoned onto that, that maybe I need people to help me become more aware, uh, you know.
Yeah. Yeah. Or show
Mel: awareness of you.
Nick: Right? Show awareness of me. Yes. Oh, I'm feeling quite tearful. That's good. Something is, something is, something is moving. Oh, well, [00:37:00] that's what happens. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. This is. Release. One, one more small story. But, but you must keep an eye on the time because I'm enjoying myself and I can go on for far too long.
I've been interested for a long time in a thing called appreciative inquiry, which is basically saying instead of we spending all our time paying attention to what's broken and then feeling depressed and what's broken and try to fix it, we actually concentrate, we actually try and find out what's working and see how we can have more of it.
Yeah. And even if, even if the thing is a dire, you can ask people, how do you survive? And then they start to feel great and then they start to feel how they can think, feel better. But I've been really interested in doing in a very simple application, which is about happiness. So this is a game. This is something you, your moms can play with each other.
Or with their friends, [00:38:00] which is you ask people simply to tell a story about a time when you were happy. And this is a really interesting thing to do because you discover there are lots of different ways of being happy that you hadn't thought about before. And when, and when I say to you, Mel, tell me a story about a time when you were happy, the problem isn't, isn't finding one, it's choosing one.
So you realize you've been happy a lot. And so the sharing of happy stories is a really happy experience. But the, the nuance, which is really powerful is if you ask people, tell me a story when you made somebody else happy. The energy level goes up. In other words, people feel happy. People feel really happy when they make somebody else happy.
And it may be that [00:39:00] the simplest way to be happy is to make somebody else happy.
And I get that is a revolutionary idea. It isn't about buying a new BMW. It's a, it's not unless it's for somebody else. It's about. Making somebody happy and nearly always the thing, when you ask people, what, tell me a happy story or tell me a time when you made somebody else happy. They're very simple and they cost very little.
Mel: Yeah.
Yeah. That, and, and interestingly, I think those two things kind of tie together because you're, you're sharing a story in order to get the core process, right. To get these two words about happiness and. And I think this concept, as you say, about [00:40:00] we feel happy when we do things for other people. Right? So there's an interesting thing there where, you know, the topic that I'm often working with mums on and that we're talking about on this podcast is this purpose and finding your why and your big audacious dream and giving yourself the space to feel listened to and to give all that.
And. that perhaps the quickest way that we can get to that is actually about how talking about how we have made other people happy, right? So it's a little less self centered, even though eventually it'll come back to us, right? Not that we do things for others in order for us to feel happy, but maybe we do to some extent, right?
I think that's the human, human nature that it feels good to make others feel good, right? Oh,
Nick: yeah. Well, in the gospels, I mean you know, Jesus, Jesus said, you know, love your, love yourself, [00:41:00] love your neighbor as yourself. We didn't say you shouldn't love yourself. You know, both, both are important. Yeah.
Mel: Well, and yeah, exactly. Both like let's love others and So where my mind is going now, as it will always move when we have a conversation, is, you know, I, I'm constantly trying to go through iterations of the work that I'm doing and trying to just figuring out how to describe what I'm doing and what is it exactly that I'm doing with people, knowing that it's risking love underneath it all.
But putting that words that make sense to, to the people around me as well. And Where my mind is going, if I can now remember because my mind just went 60 places at the same time, is that well, let's just say that [00:42:00] it is about, oh, is about impact. So I'm often talking about how we want to create something. I'm working with moms who have this dream is often about creating a positive impact in the world.
Right. And.
I just kind of, I just made a little click in my head, I suppose, that that's because it feels good to make other people feel good, right? And that, that impact and that feeling good is the key to helping ourselves, right? That's why that is so important to me that that element is there. I think, you know, like, I went through stages where I was like, I want to work with women in business or moms in business.
And I'm like, yes, and there's an element of that that interests me the most, right? And it's the impact. It's that side where we're, where we're [00:43:00] feeling listened to. It's the side where we're making a difference to other people and therefore feeling a lot better about who we are. and making the world go round better, right?
So that was, that was my two minutes of just blabbing to you and working on what was going on in my head there. But yeah,
Nick: you should rephrase that because you should say that was my two, that was my two minutes of of, of, of thinking, of using this opportunity to think very clearly. Yes. Yeah. I mean, it's so easy to get into these, I'm slapping always gently, to get into these habits of putting yourself down, putting ourselves down by saying just blabbing.
Language is really important. Like, like one of the things you can do to help people is when people say I'll try to do something. You just say, I'd just like you to rephrase that and say, and replace [00:44:00] try with I've decided. Mm
Mel: hmm. Yeah, do or do not, there is no try at the Yoda place. I say that far too frequently, probably, to my husband.
He says he'll try. I was like, that doesn't mean anything.
But you're right, words are important, and actually, I think one of the things in every conversation we have, you catch me out on some word that I've said, and I'm, you know, it makes me stop and reflect on that, because you're right. You're right. That was me going, Oh, I'm on a podcast about somebody else and I'm talking about myself.
That's all the story going on in my head. Right. And the fact that it wasn't perhaps as clear as I want it to be because I haven't said it out loud before. Right. And you're right. The words that imply that that process isn't as important as the end process where I can put a sentence out that's completely clear to you.
Right. And actually [00:45:00] that process of talking is, is just as important and feeling heard. Yeah,
Nick: I mean there's a lot of people feel terrible about, you know, being confused, being confused. It's a good state because what it means is it's it's something is fermenting, you know, all the other metaphor.
It's like. You know, when the, when the caterpillar becomes a pupa, everything inside the caterpillar is confused and out of it comes the butterfly. So well, I mean, welcome confusion. It's fine. What it means is that something, something interesting is happening.
Mel: What if we remove that judgment from the confusion, right?
Nick: Yeah. Well, personal development isn't a straight line. It's if time is in a vertical axis and [00:46:00] you, you go, you go along fairly smoothly in life and then you have a time when you're sort of, things seem to be going backwards and everything is wrong and things feel completely wrong, but out of that, then you make a step change.
That's called life.
Mel: And then you get back in the circle again, that's usually the way it is, right? You make that change and then circle. Then
Nick: it happens again. But you know, it just happened.
Mel: Yeah, for sure. Amazing. That's so, yeah, powerful, Nick. And, okay, so as we do start to wind ourselves down Because I think you and I could probably talk for about three hours if we let ourselves.
But for the sake of people who are listening in a chunk of time, the last question that I always ask people is, what is your top [00:47:00] tip for Mothers who are listening, who are feeling the desire to go and do something, to go and feel like, I was going to say be something as well, right? And who have these big audacious dreams that they love their family, they are doing something, they are being something, and they have this desire to do more than that.
What would you say? What's your top tip?
Nick: Do something. Okay.
Do something that takes you in that direction every day. And there's a thing from U Lab, which is which is called rapid prototyping.
Which [00:48:00] is the, and it's basically the shoot, observe, aim. So you shoot first, so in other words, you do something, you see what happens, and then you aim, which means you shoot again. Anything interesting, you can't predict in advance, you can't do all the analysis in advance to predict it's going to work.
Yeah. The only way you'll find, the quickest way to find out whether anything is going to work or not is to, is to have a go. And you know, you can always take a direction, which is something like, my life won't be complete until I've failed comprehensively at least twice.
Mel: Yep. Yep. And, and seeing that failure as a, as like something you're working towards.
I'm
Nick: not sure I go, I'm not sure I go quite that far as working towards it, but, but certainly not seeing it as something which is. You know, which is, which is, which is [00:49:00] terrible because. Because it isn't and
Mel: the fact is we're not going to get it right the first time. Nobody does. We might not get it right the hundredth time, right?
But we're closer and what is it and right changes over time as well as we change over time. And yeah, that's amazing because yeah. Overthinking is a very common, common thing in this space, and it's usually this fear of failure, or as we've discussed before, a fear of success, which is a whole nother matter.
Yeah,
amazing. Thank you for coming, Nick. In terms of people being able, I know that you have an incredible website, I think even recently updated with so many different tools, such as the ones that you have described here. So where can people come and find you if they are intrigued and want to see or find more?
Nick: Oh, well, my [00:50:00] website is is just Nick Heap. That's N I C K H E A P. co. uk. I'm also all over LinkedIn. I have I have about 40 articles on LinkedIn. I'm in the process of copying some over to my website, but either place will find me. Brilliant.
Mel: I love it. Thank you so much for sharing your, you and your wisdom and your experience and tools with us today, Nick.
Nick: It's been a real pleasure, Mel.
That is it, folks. This has been Mel Finlayder on Permission to Be Human, the podcast, and I am so glad that you have joined us here today and hope that you have taken away some tidbits that will help you go away, connect with your big audacious dream, and make that massive impact in the world that you are dying to make.
If you liked [00:51:00] today's episode, please, please, please Like it, share it, think of one person, think of one person that you think would also like it and Send it on over to them. Let's get this out there and more moms feeling like themselves inspired Dreaming big and out there being them. Please do head on over to find me on Facebook with permission to be human or Instagram or you can even Off me an email and say hello.
Have permission to be human, always, at gmail. com. Say hello and let me know that you listened. What did you like about it? I would love to hear. If you didn't like it, I don't really want to know. Just kidding, you can share that if you want. I would love to know, however. who you are. Let's connect. Let's find out what you want more of.
Yes, this is a newer podcast, so I want to hear from you and I want to [00:52:00] make it what would be useful to you. As always, remember that you have permission to dream big, permission to feel big, and permission to be you. You have complete and full permission to be human. For real. You do.
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