Episode 20 - Catherine Edsell
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[00:00:00] Oh, it's a goodie today. Folks, we have Catherine Edsel being interviewed with me. On today's episode and I'm so excited to share this. Catherine is someone who I really admire and has such an incredible way of. Talking about her adventures and really takes adventure to the extreme. And lets us then open our minds up to something that maybe we didn't even think it was possible. So Catherine Edsel is an adventure, conservationist and global. Expedition leader. With over 20 years of experience in the industry. She's worked in some of the remotest. Areas on the planet. And sometimes her kids have come with her to those. And she Keely noticed the benefits of being completely off-grid immersed in the natural world. And then she wanted to share those experiences with [00:01:00] others. So she created something really amazing called the matriarch adventure, which is a transformational extreme wilderness expedition, encouraging women to step into the wild.
She also recognizes the importance of grassroots conservation. So she's worked alongside some of the world's most pioneering biodiversity scientists in an effort to further. Everyone's understanding of the natural world to facilitate. The many aspects of her life. She's a qualified field guide of Southern Africa. Uh, Paty dive, , master, and reef check trainer. Day, skipper, yoga teacher. Has an amazing TEDx talk that I highly recommend you watch. And is a published author and an ambassador for E H R a supported endangered. Desert adapted elephants. Amazing. Catherine. She, her story is epic and I highly recommend this. [00:02:00] Listen. / hi Catherine, welcome.
Catherine: Hello, thank you for having me, it's really exciting. I'm
Mel: so excited to have you here, we met, how, I don't even know how long ago that was now, when my daughter was quite young, I think we met when she was like one, so that was what, seven years ago or something, at the...
[00:03:00] Yestival. Yestival.
Yeah, at Yestaville, uh, and I was so inspired by your, by your kids, actually, at first, is mostly what I was really inspired of, funnily enough, for sharing their
Catherine: stories. Yeah, they'd done all that walking. We went to, we did a big trek in the Everest region. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mel: No, it was in Spain, I think that was.
Oh, the Camino. Yes, it was the Camino. Yeah, I think
Catherine: we went on to do other things. Yeah. Yeah,
Mel: exactly. And then I got to hear your story and it's kind of gone from there. And, we're jumping ahead for those who don't know you. So tell us a little bit, like, who's, who's Catherine?
Catherine: Okay, so I'm 52 year old mother, and I became a mother when I was 33. So yeah, it's like 19 years now. And I think, I suppose, you know, I'm quite [00:04:00] an adventurous person anyway. I am an expedition leader by trade. , that is a trade, I'm not sure, but I'm an expedition leader and I've worked on expeditions, biodiversity studies, all around the world, working with loads of different people, lots of different organizations, always doing conservation, so really remote.
grassroots, investigative, working with PhD students and scientists and, you know, really stuff that I love because it's, I'm not a scientist by trade, but I have worked on so many science projects and actually developed my own, field scientist nature that I feel part of it all on that level as well.
But yeah, so I was, After university I went off and , did all this volunteering work and then got really interested in tropical environments and stuff so I went out and did all of that and in one of these expeditions I met my husband. He was the medic, um, on expedition. And then we quickly got together and [00:05:00] had our first daughter.
So this was sort of a very quick change for me. , it was something which kind of floored me a little bit, because I wasn't really expecting how difficult it would be to have a child when you're used to being quite so free. And UK, which is where I'm based. Really, apart from my family, you know, I didn't have a house.
I didn't have a job here. So, and I didn't really have, I had old school friends, but I didn't have. like a community that I would consider. So I found it very difficult being a mum, , initially, and then sort of had to find a way to claw myself back into being my own person within motherhood. , and I suppose now that's It's sort of fast forward.
I, I invented or designed an expedition company, , which is primarily for women. Actually, it is for women. It's completely for women. It's [00:06:00] primarily for mothers, but anybody can come. But that's, that's kind of where it started. But I was like, okay, I want to lead expeditions for moms who don't really necessarily get to go out on these cool adventures.
And, you know, get to really remote places, things that I really love and uphold as being very valuable to life. And so I set up the Matriarch Adventure, which is out in Namibia, and I'm actually going out in a month's time, or less than a month now, for a whole month leading expeditions out there. Wow, I
Mel: love that.
So mom and that story around really kind of figuring out who you are within that. I think we can dig into that more. And as you spoke, it really Yeah. Peace. It reminded me of how I felt when I met you, which was like you were telling my story, and not, not from a non expedition leader perspective, it's more from a like, I'm used to being free and being spontaneous, [00:07:00] and I remember that feeling, um, after IVF baby, so like, we worked really hard for this, and then I was all of a sudden pregnant and I was going, Um, Wait, what does that mean?
Right. Um, and I was in a different country as well, didn't have my family around, didn't have that support network. I had to build that. And, um, going and meeting all these incredible moms, they were like amazing people. But we're all in our, like, all you talk about is babies . I'm kind of, I wanna talk about something that isn't sleep and poop, you know?
Yeah. Um, and I think that a lot of listeners can really relate to that side of, of both of our stories in this. Transition to motherhood being the, the fear of losing that freedom and what do we do with that? Yeah,
Catherine: absolute. We shift that. And also I suppose, because my husband had a very defined job, you know, he was a doctor, he was, you know, so his, [00:08:00] his life was very mapped out and, you know, he went to work every day and he came and, and I didn't, I didn't have any of that because I didn't really know how I was going to, create my own life again, I suppose, because I, at that point in time, when they're really literally like, how the hell is this?
Well, actually, no, first of all, I thought this is going to be easy. I'll just strap on my back and I'll go and wander off into a remote forest. But then you realize that the Child that you have doesn't necessarily wanna do that. And, and this is against all these things that I'd ever read and learned. I mean, I don't know if you've heard of Jean Leof the Continuum concept?
No. Tell us. And she, she was an anthropologist. She went to study tribes and she'd sort of figured out that children really didn't need that much. And as long as they had sort of close parental contact, I think she's one of the early instigators of this sort of,, I can't remember what it's called actually, when you know the match.
Yeah, attachment parenting, but she was sort of that one of the sort of anthropologists [00:09:00] that studied that for the first time. But when you look at it, it's completely different when you're in a village in, you know, out of Indonesia somewhere and or Africa or wherever, as opposed to being in the middle of London, where It doesn't have the same quality because you're not all sitting there peeling your, podding your peas, you know, cross legged with a baby in your lap.
You're trying to go to the supermarket and buy the peas and, you know, and you still got the baby in your lap and it just doesn't work quite as well. You know, so it was, it was, it was all those things of trying to marry the ideal of what I thought having a baby would be, was the, with the reality of what having a baby was when I, you know, and the door was shut, you know, I closed my.
door and there was nobody there apart from me and the baby who was crying all the time and I didn't know how to manage that and my husband would come back and I'd be like, just take her, just go, I don't care, I just need [00:10:00] to like, my nerves were so jangled and I think I just wasn't used to that at all.
Um, so yeah, that transition was quite difficult. And then, yeah, and
Mel: I think everybody can relate and. Our transition will be different for, for all of us, but have those similarities of like, figuring it out, managing your expectations versus the reality and, and, and then like, essentially going through kind of crisis for a year or so, until you start to like, breathe a little bit again, and then.
Your brain turns back on and you can, you can kind
Catherine: of, yeah,
Mel: then you have another one. Exactly. I was one of those moms who like my first child was actually, I could bring her everywhere. I was like going to cafes and having meetings about like. people with their dreams and all sorts of stuff. And she was just, she was the kid that could do that.
And then she tricked me into thinking that's what kids were. [00:11:00] So I had a second one who's the complete opposite and, and glorious and wonderful and challenges me and makes me a better person. And it's really difficult and wouldn't want to come, like couldn't just come and sit in the meeting and be quiet.
Like that's. That's crazy. I used to take my, I used to take Ira, she was one month old and I was at a conference with her in like a sling. I'm like, yeah, I'm going to go to this conference in Berlin. That sounds great, right? And would like sit on the floor, like all sorts of things. , but they're all, they're all different.
And yeah, they kind of, , we have to adjust ourselves actually and our own skills and who we are even throughout that. , but I wouldn't take. Any of
Catherine: that back. Right? Oh God, no, no. Like, um, You know, it, yeah, I mean, we decided, actually, because I, you know, I still had this hankering to travel and to see new places.
So the plan was that, you know, I'd have my first baby and then we'd go to Australia and Mark could [00:12:00] do a sabbatical for a year and that would be great. And then I found out I was pregnant with the second baby. So our plan sort of changed a little bit. We still went to Australia, but we didn't go to You know, the back beyond we sort of stayed in Melbourne.
We did a lot of traveling around, but it was much more, uh, yeah. Yeah, safer, I suppose, to have that family connection. I've got family over there. And then had two babies, so came back on the flight with two babies. And, um. Yeah. And then, and then you sort of get into that. That's when I sort of like, okay, well, this is where everything really changes.
Like now I'm really focusing on my children. And again, I, you know, you don't know when you, when you've never done it before. I mean, I just thought, okay, you know, just go to school. It's fine. You know, nursery kids can do nursery, right? So we went to the local nursery and my daughter, she was literally didn't interact with anybody at all.
And so I was thinking, okay, well, this isn't right. And they wanted to put her on, in [00:13:00] England, it's called the EHCP, which is an educational healthcare plan. And I was like, she's four, like, surely she just needs a cuddle. Um, so then I actually found a Steiner Waldorf, which...
felt much more akin to what I'd expected and what she needed. So we went down that sort of alternative educational path, actually for both children, even though they're completely different. Um, that was something which was. amazing and also challenging because when you're doing something out of the mainstream you're always kind of like, am I doing the right thing?
You know, is this, is this, you know, you know, and you've got granny or, you know, you've got your friends saying, are they reading yet? You know, how old are they? Nine? Can they read? You know, like, well, no, but it's gentler and it's slower and, you know, so you're always, [00:14:00] wondering if you've made the right choice, but knowing deep down that you have, you really have to trust that.
Um, and we did, and we have, and both children went through the system, one's left and gone on to do her further education, and one's about to sit her final, uh, it's the Steiner Diploma, which is different to A levels, which we do here, and, yeah, and go to university with. that system. So, you know, again, it's, it's been a big journey of trust and, you know, that it will all be okay and not blind trust, you know, a lot of inquiry as well and a lot of studies.
Mel: But I think you really tap into something there, both in the decisions we're making for our kids, and if they're out of the normal realm, quote unquote, of, , of what people tend to do, then there's our own judgments about it, our own thoughts about what other people are thinking, even if they're not, and then there's what they're actually [00:15:00] thinking, and all those things along the lines, both with our kids, but, but also So, you know, if we bring it over to what our big dreams are, you know, like some of these expeditions that you're doing, how, what was the reaction there?
And does that relate to what we're talking to now?
Catherine: Yeah, I mean, the education in itself is very dependent on the parent being present. So, I mean, they don't start full time school probably, you know, until they're about. Nine, eight or nine. So
Mel: you don't know if we ever talked about it, but my daughter was actually in a Steiner school there for
Catherine: okay.
Yeah. So there's a lot of, , a lot of hands on some parents, you have to be around. So me going away was quite a tricky thing to organize. And I did. What I started to do was, you know, find smaller or trying to find shorter, uh, expeditions so that I wasn't doing so in previously there'd been months [00:16:00] of expeditions, but, and a friend of mine said, or he was a colleague at the time, he said, you know, if you do marine surveys, so like, uh, diving expeditions, then these are generally shorter than terrestrial ones because I'd always worked in jungles and rainforests and deserts.
So I actually retrained when the kids were small. I retrained, um, as a dive master and then as a coral reef ecologist. And then I took the kids with me. So we had these big summer breaks. That is the bonus of, with, with Steiners, you get long holidays. Um, so I take them with me. Um, and we'd go off to Indonesia or Asia or wherever it was that I needed to go.
And they'd be looked after by a local family just for the time when I was underwater, which is actually when you're diving, not very much. It's usually two hours and you do it twice a day. And the rest of the time I could be around and they could find me if they needed me. But they'd also made friends with all the local kids, which was great actually, [00:17:00] because it meant that they had a really enriched, , Yeah, childhood, I suppose.
And they really look back and I'm very grateful that they had those opportunities, even though they didn't have a choice, you know, it was, it was, it was kind of selfish, but at the same time, I thought, No, you know, this is this will suit all of us. And Mark could come out, you know, for a couple of weeks here or there, he couldn't stay up very long, because doctors don't get long holidays, but he could join us.
And because I only had two kids, I felt like I could really grasp for that. And, you know, I could go through airports and do all the things you need to do, because I had to. Two hands and I could hold on to two children. So, um, so yeah, there was the possibility of having a third, but actually that's kind of where I drew the line.
I can't, I've only got two hands. It's not going to work.
Mel: Exactly. Exactly.
Catherine: Um, yeah, that's how I brought expeditions back into our lives, really.
Mel: Yeah, that's brilliant. And I love that like visual of the girls playing on the beach while you're like, you know, retraining to do diving [00:18:00] and then going out on these expeditions.
And, um, there was a quote that you say in your TEDx talk that I really love. It's the postcard that was given to you. Um, I wonder if you could tell us about
Catherine: that. This is my brother and it was actually, um, it was one of my, I think I was 38 at the time and he sent me this card and it said, I wanted to go out and change the world but I couldn't find a babysitter.
And, and it was one of those, it was, it was sort of like fridge magnets, you know, those sort of like plastic things was written in that and I was like, God, that's so true, because at that point in time I hadn't done anything and it, and I actually, I found it really painful, you know, he'd meant it as a sort of a, you know, a light quip and or maybe some inspiration, I don't know, but I took it really personally and I had to actually put it away because it upset me so much.
And it was only when I found it. A few years later I just thought no, actually I am gonna. I am going to do, maybe it's not changing the world, but it's, it's changing [00:19:00] my world enough that I can then bring other people along with me. Um, so yeah, that's, that was the, that was the quote. And that's when I decided to, you know, venture further afield.
And, and because I had that experience as well, you know, travel is not a scary thing for me and other, you know. I actually, I thrive off it, and remote countries, the more remote the better, because there's less stuff to deal with. So, whereas somebody else might say, oh I don't know, you know, it's a bit, I don't know, it's the unknown, as to me it was very known.
So I suppose that's how that fed into the whole idea of, um, the Matriarch Adventure, whereas other mums saying, you know, you're always going off. great places, you know, why can't we do that? And I thought, yeah, you can, you can, I can do this for you. So that's why I designed it in the first place was to bring my fellow mums along on an adventure so that they could experience what I love so much and gain that freedom.
Um, even if it's only for [00:20:00] 10 days, you know, but it's still, if you go far enough away and you. put your phone in a bag and don't look at it and no one can contact you, that is actually very freeing and the vistas, you know, when you're going out into these environments, you know, there's no buildings, there's no other people, you're completely in nature's lap.
So, yeah.
Mel: I, that is, that's just so amazing and that postcard sticks in my head because it like, I, I seem to recall when I watched it I pretty much wanted to cry too because I was like oh my god that's true because I was stuck in that space and um, and I love what it's, it's led into and sometimes it's, it's acknowledging that pain which is what that brought out and being like oh shoot okay like eventually what am I going to do about that and I would argue that you 100 percent are changing the world.
There's no doubt in my mind that that's what you're doing because each individual mom that you're helping to come out of that space of challenge, uh, in whatever phase they might [00:21:00] be in, they are going to be better for it. Their family is going to be better for it. Their kids are going to be, everybody they interact with will be better for the fact that you worked with them.
And a big, my big, um, My belief, and in all the work I do, is that mums are the ones that are going to change the world. And the more of them that we can empower, the more change happens. Right. And it's just a massive ripple effect.
Catherine: It's really interesting actually, because, you know, I have a lot of, I mean, this is not a big company, you know, I'm not doing thousands of exhibitions.
It's very, you know, you deal with me and I have, you know, I talk to everybody on the phone and there's often people who, you know, hear about it and they're like, Oh yeah, I'd love to do it.
Possibly, you know, what about the kids? What about, you know, who's going to look after them? They won't cope without me. There's going to be, you know, how are they going to get to school and swimming and all of these things? And, and it costs a lot of [00:22:00] money. And, you know, I can't give that to myself and I'm being really selfish.
And there's this whole sort of spiral of things that comes up. And it's really interesting because. I still have all of that. You know, I still have to overcome every time I go on expedition. And I, I know I, and, and I do, I do it because I know it's so right. But there's still, part of me is like, especially when they were younger, where I'd have to get my mom or Mark's mom into sort of really help and hold the foot because he couldn't do it on his own.
Um, but fortunately I did have that support. But it's what's really nice is that when women do take that leap, and they do actually find those resources in themselves and from their community, their family, and come away, they realize that, you know, as one woman said, the world carried on turning without me, you know, they all coped, everything was fine.
And I think once you've done it once, and you've put yourself [00:23:00] because it does feel You know, difficult, but once you've done it once and you realize that everyone was fine and they didn't really miss you that much because it was only for them a week with two weekends, whereas to you it feels like a massive stretch of time.
And you've had this amazing experience sometimes the assimilation is a bit difficult when you come back and you're like, Oh God, how do I integrate again, but actually. They are fine, you know, and, and they've seen you do something. And that's another thing. It's like, it's not just loading the dishwasher and driving them to school every day.
It's like your mom's gone on and done something quite cool and worked with desert elephants and gone in trucks and slept out under the stars and done yoga in their pajamas on a desert, you know, it's like, it's just, you know, and tracked and tracked. So, you know, they're just things that your kids can be proud of.
you doing, you know? Yeah, 100
Mel: percent proud of you doing, and also like, I think doing [00:24:00] things, whether it's as big as what you're talking about, or even just as simple as this weekend, my husband's cousin was getting married, I sent them off to it. I had a soccer game, so I'm like, I'm going to stay home. Um, and you know, so as big or, big or small as you want to make it, right?
Making those choices means that our kids see that as normal. And they see that mom takes care of herself, she doesn't only sacrifice. So that means when they become adults, they've learned that same thing. They've learned and normalized the fact that they need to take time for themselves. They're not going to completely just give, give, give, give
Catherine: all the time.
Yeah, and it's interesting actually, because there's a, there is a demographic of women that come on these exhibitions who, who, who never did, and they're older and their kids have left. And suddenly they're like, no. You know, what about me, you know, where I kind of lost myself in that journey somewhere. And I didn't do that.
And, and not, you know, it's never too late, [00:25:00] honestly, you know, and seeing these women who are older and whose kids have gone off to university, just suddenly finding their confidence again, and finding that, you know, the They can do things on their own, they can do things with other women, and they can do things which are really outside their comfort zone, because as you get older your world does close down, um, quite a lot.
And then having the confidence to go and do it again somewhere else, or do it maybe on your own completely, and, you know, just all of these, so it's, it's, you know, I think whatever stage of life, it's, it doesn't, you know.
Mel: Yeah, exactly. And it's impacting you clearly, you know, whatever stage you're in. And I would argue that actually as, like, you made me, I thought of my mom while you were just talking right now.
I'm like, if my mom, I would be like so proud and I'd be like, oh. Okay, so that just gave me permission, as a 40 year old, just gave me permission to go and do something that challenges me. [00:26:00] Right? So, we never really stopped being that mum, and inspiring our kids in the choices
Catherine: that we make. No, exactly. And it's really, I mean, I've taken my mum on expedition with me, which was great.
And I've had other mother daughter, um, duos, you know, I've had... Like niece and aunt net, you know, and I actually lead a mother and daughter expedition, but that's slightly different. That's for Moms with teenage daughters because I also realized that that's a thing That becomes a little bit spiky, you know when you've got your teenage daughters and you're really up until about 12 They love you and they'll do everything for you and people like can I bring my eight year old and like no because you haven't Got any problems, you know You know, your eight year old will do whatever you say, whereas your twelve year old or your eleven year old, twelve year old won't, and they, they're starting to separate themselves from you, and that's completely healthy and absolutely normal, but it's really nice to sort of cherish [00:27:00] that, uh, relationship so that when, you know, when doors are being slammed and, and secrets are being kept, you know, you've always got that solidarity in that relationship, which means that.
You can go back to that. You've got those memories and it's like, no, we went away together. Remember, and it doesn't have to be Namibia. It doesn't have to be as, but you know, just giving that, I think, honoring that space and time between the generations when they are starting to draw apart is really important.
Yeah,
Mel: I love that. I love that. So we've been talking, um, almost around Matriarch Adventure. Tell us what it actually is.
Catherine: So it's a 10 day expedition, um, where you go off to Namibia and we work closely with, uh, an organization called Elephant Human Relations Aid that I actually first met back in 2002 when I was leading expeditions out in Namibia for another organization.
They have a very [00:28:00] grassroots monitoring program where they, there's only a few desert elephants left. They're, they're not a completely different species, but they're a subspecies of the African elephant, which is thriving. But the desert elephants, they don't have, uh, they're not in safari parks. They're not in national parks.
They're, they're basically free roaming. And so they get into all sorts of trouble, um, with local people, with governments, with traffic, you know, whatever. So, so ERA work very closely monitoring these herds, and it's really fascinating work, and they've worked with them for years, so they know them all by name, and they know them all by personality.
And so we go out. which is twofold. So first of all, we are helping them monitor them. We're sort of eyes and ears, watching, collecting data. Secondly, we're funding it because they can't afford to take the trucks out if there aren't any people in the trucks, um, and they need to go quite long distances. So it's a win win situation for them.
We get to learn and, uh, and assist and they get [00:29:00] to actually do the work. And, but. In amongst that it's very so there's conservation element but in amongst that it's very much about creating a safe space for women to go on expedition and it really is an expedition. So we, you know, we sleep out we cook out, we trek, we Yeah, I said we do yoga in the mornings, we meditate, we share, we laugh, we cry, we eat, we drink, you know, it's, it's the, a very melting pot of women's experience, which is over across the ages.
So I think the youngest I've had is 26, the oldest is 72. So we've got a very broad range of women. And You know, everyone brings their own story into it and their own expertise and their own, you know, take on life and I think because there is so much space even though it's quite a close environment, there's so much space around you that you don't feel like you're, you know, that it's, that it's too [00:30:00] much, you know, it's, it's definitely a balance.
And I'm always there watching and mediating and managing the group, because I can see, you know, who's the experts, who's the introverts, who needs more space to talk, who needs less, who needs more quiet, you know, and just. really, I'm very attentive. And I love that part of it, because it is definitely drawing the best out of everybody and creating that team who will support each other, through thick and thin.
And, you know, when you come back, you have these groups, people meet up, there's, you know, there's reunions, it's in, you know, and people take different actions in life. So you really see, I really see how that, how that works as a, It's more than just a going and collecting data citizen science expedition.
It's much, much more than that. It's very much about the women. Um, and yeah, and that relationship. And then you have
Mel: that. And I love that there's both sides to that, right? There's that conservation element, which, you know, let's be honest, sometimes the [00:31:00] travel that we choose to do in the world is doing worse for the world than better, right?
It's not necessarily good in that sense. But going, I love that you've thought through how can we make this It's again, changing the world in a whole different way, right? In this, you know, these tiny little things to help out these elephants, to help out the conservation workers, whilst also providing this incredible life changing experience for the women who attend.
I just think that's so amazing. And also like one day, me and my daughter will a hundred percent be joining in, , if not me, just, just me before. And I'm sitting here going, maybe I can convince my mom to go now that that thought's been going on in my head. , but I love that. Yeah, I love that there's that two sides of, of that adventure and, it's such a great opportunity for, for any woman out there to, to go and find themselves.
This is a really cheesy way of saying it, but like, I think that's probably what happens.
Catherine: Yeah, there's definitely, an element of discovery [00:32:00] is, and, and. you don't necessarily know what you're going for. And people go, you know, you're literally leaving. I know I'm doing it at the moment. So it's all the, okay, fill in your forms, get your passport photos, book your flights, make sure everything, you know, make sure everything's done, buy your kit.
And everyone's, you know, everyone's trying to do all of that. And, and also the kids go back to school and just sitting out and you know, that people are going to get on the plane. without really having, like, given it any thought other than the preparation. And that's fine. You know, that's absolutely fine.
And then, you know, they might have a glass of wine or, you know, in the airport. So because people meet up, it's like, Oh, hello, you know, some people will come already met. And then we get there and we were in Swakopmund, which is like a quite a nice town, in Namibia. And so you have a big meal together and then the next day we get preparation and then you head off and, and as it and then you slightly move further and further away until you're suddenly in base camp and then you're suddenly out [00:33:00] and all you've got to sleep in is your mosquito net, which is not for mosquitoes is just for protection from scorpions, really.
But, you know, just like, so you're in this little net in your sleeping bag under the stars and you're like, God, you know, two days ago I was in London and it's just quite amazing how, how far you can go so quickly. And that's why I chose Namibia actually, because there's no, well, unless you're coming from the U.
S. it's different, but from the U. K. there's no, um, and Europe, there's no real, you know, time difference. You don't get the jet lag.
Mel: And you get people coming from
Catherine: all over the world? Yeah, so this time I've got people from the US, from Australia, from Belgium, Germany, um, France. I've had people from Australia, did I say Australia?
Australia, um, I've got South African women come as well. And I think it is sort of gearing towards the UK, [00:34:00] but it's definitely not all UK by any means. So, um, yeah, it's really nice actually. Yeah,
Mel: that's amazing. I love that. And anybody listening, you can check out, uh, your website, which we'll put, we'll say all the details at the end shortly, but I'm, I'm, you know, we've dug into really the specifics about the Maytrak Adventure being, you know, the big one that you really like to run.
Is it a couple times a year now or once a
Catherine: year? Yeah, so it's, it's, well, I'm doing two back to back, sort of, so my airfare is not so great and two back to back to the whole of October. I'm also doing another one in May next year. So, yeah, so back to, yeah, two to three. Yeah.
Mel: Awesome. And, and, you know, throughout you're doing some other expeditions here and there as well.
And I'm, I'm curious if the question I ask everybody that comes on is what is your big audacious dream? And I'm wondering how, you know. These individual things fit into the wider picture. What's the big dream? [00:35:00] Yeah,
Catherine: I mean, I feel like I'm on another cusp at the moment, because my children are about to leave home.
And it feels like, I mean, you know, I, I still get up in the morning and, you know, 6. 30. Get them up, make their sandwiches, you know, and it's funny because I was like, can't you make your own sandwiches? No, I was like, actually, no, this is their final year and I just want to give that as a gift. I want to be there, like really present and, you know, doing all those things, but I know next year there's no more school.
That's it. It's over. So, so. So I feel like I'm on that cusp. I'm not entirely sure what it looks like. , I'm imagining more freedom. I'm imagining more ability to be away more, because at the moment I'm still very much aware of the impact I'm having on the family, so I don't do it as much as I could. , I think the dream.
Is to, [00:36:00] to get it into a balance where I can create more adventures. I think, I love Namibia and it's like, it's definitely my favorite place in the whole world. Um, but there's other places and other experiences that I want to explore, which at the moment are proving a little bit difficult, um, just because of logistics.
So I want to be able to really have time to recce. I think that's what I need time to do. It's a recce and to, to really revisit because a lot of the things I've done in my past, I've always come full circle onto like turtle work and, you know, elephant work. And there's, there's lots of things that have always been there.
And there's other circles that I'd like to create. I think I already have everything that I need. If you know what I mean, I just need to. I just need to revisit it and make it more balanced. Um, I'm, I'm very grateful for my early explorations because it really, [00:37:00] it really set that, uh, groundwork. So I'd like to revisit the jungle.
Um, I know that's something that I haven't done for a long time. And I was just, you know, I was thinking I'm doing more sailing now. So, so I'm definitely a water person, you know, diving and sailing. Definitely a desert person, trekking. definitely a jungle person. I haven't been for a long time. I'm definitely not a mountain person.
So my husband can do that side of things. He loves that. I love them, but I don't love them. You know, they're usually too cold. I think that's basically it. So it's always going to be warm where I am, but yeah, so I just. I just want to have that breathing space to actually, yeah, see how, see how it all melds together in a sustainable way that I can sort of do it on a loop almost do it on an annual cycle because I am, but it's still big chunks where it's a bit.
You know, static, and I just need that time to recce. Love that.
Mel: [00:38:00] That's such a British term, recce, by the way.
Catherine: What do you call it? Reconnaissance? I
Mel: don't even know what I'd call that. It's reconnaissance. Explore? Try? I don't know. Um. Yeah, and it sounds like, so it sounds like, you know, you're in this transition of life now, where you've been building it up to where it is, things are going to shift in the next year or so quite a bit.
And you're in this exploring phase of figuring out, um, where the million, I imagine, ideas that you've had over the years will lead. And, um, and it sounds like, you know, if I was put where I was on that dream, it. I don't even know what I'd say, but something along the lines of, like, really finding a way to fit expeditions and adventure and any other word you want to pour, put around that into, you know, the new life that is.[00:39:00]
Catherine: Yeah, I mean, it's always been about simplicity. I think I really like paring back. I like things to be simple. I like them to be clear. You know, I like them to be. uncomplicated and I think that's, that's very much a part of it. So trying to make things. You know, I mean, when I get to Namibia, it's very easy for me, it's very straightforward, everything's set up, I know how it works, and I know where I'm going, and I know the, I know what Elephant's going to do, and I don't know what the weather's going to do, but I know how it feels, and, and I think it's, and it's always like, we, so we don't have, we have a no phone policy on Expedition, and that's For many reasons.
Um, one is because there is a sort of element that if you're carrying a mobile phone and you're in Rhino territory, then you can be tracked and it can be negative towards the organization we work with. But, you know, they could be implicated if there's any poaching. So there's that. side of it. [00:40:00] Second side is basically we live on our phones and it's so nice to just put it away.
And I remember those exhibitions where I didn't have a phone yet. And we, you know, we had VHF radios and that was all we had to communicate with. And they didn't always work because he wasn't, he wasn't always in line of sight. And, and it was, you know, it's such a beautiful time for me. And I want to give that as a gift to other people, just say, put your phone in this bag.
I'll look after it for a week. And then you can get it back at the end if you want it. And some people are like, no, I don't want it back. Um, but it's, yeah, initially they don't want to give it, but at the end they're like, I don't want it back. Cause we, I think that it, it, for me, it's about that simplicity of having that clear, clear thought.
You know, when people aren't interrupting you, whether it's your children or it's the phone, you know, people are always like, just getting into your brain. Whereas if there's nothing interrupting you, you have a chance to have real conversations and just sit and look and you're not trying to video everything [00:41:00] or take a selfie or, you know, you're actually just there.
I say to people, bring real cameras, or don't bring any cameras, bring binoculars, because somebody's going to be taking photos. And we actually have, I have an amazing woman who comes with me. She's a, she's a guide. She's a trained field guide and a driver and an amazing photographer. So she always takes these beautiful pictures.
If you look at my website, all of those are hers and more. And. So she takes photos throughout and then people can buy them if they want to print at the end, you know, it's, and it's, it's so, so it's that simplicity for me. So being really present in where you are and everything I want to create, I want it to be like that so that you can be really present.
And I suppose that's why I do the yoga in the morning. I mean, it's not yoga, like in, you know, in, in a barn or with lycra on or anything like that. It's very much yoga. of just centering yourself, and I do a lot of qigong exercises, just breathing and just being and looking [00:42:00] and, you know, hearing the, the baboons, you know, and hearing the, the wind, you know, in the grass and all of that stuff.
So, so yeah, it's about creating simplicity and presence. Um, is very important for me, so that's, that's my dream, to create expeditions that are, um, simple and present. I
Mel: love that, and I love that, um, you know, giving people that presence. I'm just gonna stop for a second, I don't know if you can hear, but there's a, um, recycling truck outside my window right now.
Oh dear. I'm gonna give it a
Catherine: second. I didn't know if you could hear, Hannah's just playing really loud music upstairs. You can't, no.
Mel: So we're good. Yeah.
There's a neighbour that can tell.
Catherine: Yeah, she doesn't know I'm in here. So, anyway,
Mel: let's go on. I can't hear it, so it's okay.[00:43:00]
Take your time, recycling truck.
Catherine: I can't hear it at
Mel: all, actually. That's really good. The microphone must be good then. Yeah.
At least I can hear myself now. Um, so what I was going to say is that the phrase that was coming to my mind while you were talking about that dream is... Like, well, so firstly, the word, the fact that it's about wellness. As well, right? It's about bettering the wellness of the women that are attending there.
And yeah, the phrase that came to mind is like, giving them space to be human. Right? And, and the part of that humanity that we often don't get because we're constantly busy and interrupted and all the things, right? But it's that presence that you're describing allows them to just be, maybe to maybe stop at be, giving them the space to be.[00:44:00]
Catherine: To be and to also be connected, because I think that's what I suppose I really missed when I was, you know, when I was a young mom, you know, was, was that connection, and which I longed for, and to have a sort of tribe of women. I'm not, you know, I built them up over the years and Steiner community was very good for that.
And even when I was in Australia, there was lots of, you know, so I did have little pockets of it around, but, you know, just, just that sort of everyday life where you're sort of getting up together, that commune feel, you know, you're getting up together, you're eating together, you're walking together, you're chatting and going to bed together.
And it's just, it's just such a lovely rhythm to do with other people and to feel that we're all, we're all the same, actually, you know, we're all the same stuff going on. So, and it's just nice to have that space to be together. Um, as well as on your mom's like
Mel: B dot
Catherine: together. [00:45:00] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Mel: Yeah. I'm such a visual person, but, um, that's amazing.
I love what, what an amazing dream to have. And it's exactly what women and especially moms. Are needing, you know, in all the stages of our life, uh, because of the way life is in our modern world, right? Um, just that space to get away. All right, so as we finish off, um, what would you say is a tip you would give to the moms who are listening out there who are maybe in the beginning of their stages of dreaming about what their big audacious dream might be, or they're, you know, in the, in the crux of it and maybe, Um, Struggling through it right now.
Catherine: Yeah, I think it's about really listening to yourself because you always get to that stage where, like I said, you're trying to make excuses. Oh, that's too hard. Oh, that's too difficult. Or, you know, or, you know, that's not possible. [00:46:00] And that comes up all the time. You know, you always have that thing. Oh, it's like, Oh, I just don't know.
But it's, it's that you have to sort of go into, into your heart almost. And Just say no, this is what I really want and this is what I really need and I can push through that and through all of those doubts and all of those limitations to, to fight for that thing, whatever it is, you know, it, you know, if it's a dream, a very small spark of a dream you've got or, or just even knowing, just even realizing that where you are isn't where you want to be.
I think that's as well. It's like, okay, I'm here and I'm doing it, but I'm not feeling completely in love with it. So therefore there must be something more that I need to discover or unearth. And this is the process of unearthing, I think, of, you know, really sort of against that for me, it's like stripping back.
It's like. [00:47:00] What, what are my fundamentals? You know, what do I really crave? What do I really long for? And for me, freedom is, is a big thing. And I think it was always a big thing. I was, you know, I had it when I was a kid. It was, I always wanted that. Space and freedom. So it's nothing new. And I think that's another thing like looking back, you probably already know it, you know, you probably already know what you need to do.
And you probably already know what your dream is. It's just, yeah, just getting rid of all the, the stuff that covers it up sometimes. Yeah,
Mel: I love that. And I think you make a really good point that, you know, our dream, like I, I talk about it as the big audacious dream, right? But we might see it now, get to that point and be like, Oh, this isn't quite what I thought it was going to be.
And, you know, shift that and then it becomes a new one. And all of that is totally the process of life. And that is okay. [00:48:00] Um, and it's okay to not love it as much as you thought you'd love it. And, and it's okay to love it, you know, all of, all of the things. So, yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Okay, so where can we find more about you and the work you're doing and maybe someone's like, I want to go to Namibia.
I'm going, let's go.
Catherine: Well, I'm very, I'm very up for email. So if people want to email me, I really am quite a good correspondent. I'm not very good at social media. Um, I do it. But only because I have to, but so email info or info at cathadventure. com or Catherine at cathadventure. com or get to me. Um, I am on Instagram, you can see nice pictures, mostly taken by Kristen.
Um, who's the woman I was telling you about. Um, and you can message me there, but I'll tend to move you over to email. Um, phoning me, I'd love a phone call. I know you're in another country, but if there's anyone, you know, I can put my, you can put my [00:49:00] phone number in the notes. I love a good chat. Um, Zoom calls, happy to do that.
If people want to just really pick my brains and, you know, just say, okay, I'm feeling like this WhatsApp, I can do that as well. So. All of those sort of old school communications are great. Um, I have a website, which is www. cathadventure. com. Um, and Cath
Mel: is with a C, correct?
Catherine: Yeah, but I'm actually, it's really interesting.
My name is Catherine. And, um, For some reason along the line, I decided, well it's a long story and rambling, but Kath Adventure came up. So everyone thinks my name's Kath, but it's not, so it's Katherine. So, um, just to put the record straight. But yeah, Kath Adventure is the brand.
Mel: Excellent. Yeah, so All of the amazing old school methods to get in touch with you, which could be found on cathadventure.
com. Amazing. Thank you for that. I loved this conversation [00:50:00] and whatever future ones we end up having too.
Catherine: Yeah. Thank you very much. It's been great chatting. [00:51:00] [00:52:00]
