Episode 18 - Louisa
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/[00:00:00] Today we have a real gem for you folks. I feel so privileged to have had Louisa Jewell on our episode today, the Louisa is one of Canada's leading experts on the science of well-being and human thriving, and she founded the Canadian positive psychology association. And she was my teacher in all things, positive psychology at [00:01:00] the flouricine flourishing center. And this interview is an amazing place to one figure out what on earth? Positive psychology even means. To hear Louise's story as a real honest and open person. Who. Has had some real hardships in life and has used the learnings of positive psychology to help her not only get through them, but to thrive within some of the hardest things that you could imagine happening to a person. And Louisa of course is an amazing teacher. So she also teaches us some things about growth mindset and about how can we take care of ourselves? How can we put ourselves first and why that's important? And so, so much more so stick around if you are someone who. Maybe the is struggling and needs to find the courage to say. Please help me figure this [00:02:00] out. Or if you have been there and are now in a place where you need inspiration and you want to hear how. Someone like Louisa has set up such an incredible thing. Like the Canadian positive psychology association, as well as her amazing podcast on audible called the awesome project. So do check that out as well. All right so stay tuned and let's dig in Hi Louisa. Thanks so much for joining
Louisa: today. Hi, Mel. I'm really excited to be here. Thanks for having me.
Mel: Thank you. I am so excited to have you here. Louisa's, my teacher, essentially of all things positive psychology and has been, you've been an amazing part of my journey in rediscovering myself as a person and using some of these tools that positive psychology, which we'll talk about with that is in a second, but using those tools to really.[00:03:00]
Come back to myself actually. So, , cap, which is a certificate of Applied positive Psychology, which Louisa taught me in definitely made a big difference in my life. So I'm so excited to have you here to share with
Louisa: others. Well, thank you. Thank you for having me. And I, I think that positive psychology really does change your life.
Like, I remember when I did my Master of Applied Positive Psychology degree, , you know, not only did I learn all the tools, but when I applied it to myself, it completely transformed who I was. It's kind of like the School of Life kind of thing, you know? And, you know, Chris Peterson, one of the founders of Positive Psychology, used to always say that it's, , you know, really the study of the good life.
Hmm.
Mel: Yeah, I really like that. And that's, that's a, a great introduction because my really, my first question I wanted to ask was, what is positive psychology in your terms? Because that, that phrase will likely come up a lot in our conversation today. So, , how would you describe [00:04:00] what positive psychology is?
Louisa: Well, I would say that it is the scientific study of psychological wellbeing and human flourishing and to me positive psychology is really the study of what's right in us. But it's also the study of what keeps us psychologically healthy. And so much of what we learn is really about mental illness. And I think we really, I mean, it's such an epidemic right now.
Mental health is such an epidemic right now that I think we really need to, there's a real urgency to know about prevention and how to be proactive with your mental health. And so that's why I'm really passionate about helping people learn these tools because life can be hard and we need tools, these kind of tools to navigate life.
Mel: Yeah, yeah, for sure. That's an amazing description. And we do life. Life is hard. It always is hard, [00:05:00] right? And some, you might have some moments where it doesn't feel as much, but we will all have those times when things feel really hard on whatever scale, part of the scale. That
Louisa: is within that. Yeah. Yeah. Li you know, life is hard and we need to make the best of it.
You know, we need to be able to, to really squeeze every ounce of joy and, and happiness and, you know, as I was, I'm, I'm reading a book and, and one of the things they talk about is that what are you putting your attention on? And really your momentary what you decide to put your attention on every single day, kind of, if you sum all that up at the end of your life, that's kind of your life, right?
What you decided to focus in on. And so much of our brain can take us away to those dark places, even when, when things are not going bad, we ruminate about those things that happened last week or last month, and they kind of rob us of even [00:06:00] the good times or, or the moments when, when things are good. So, you know, I, I think having.
The skills to know how to think, feel, and behave in a way that promotes your wellbeing, that promotes your happiness, , I think is really a game changer. Yeah, definitely,
Mel: definitely agree with that. And it's the putting into practice. And what I love about the tools that we will give some a little later, but the tools that, that you've taught me through positive psychology is that they're very practical.
They're things I can literally just intentionally add into my day or catch myself in one of my thoughts that aren't serving me particularly well and be like, okay, what do I need to do to reframe that? , you know, if something frustrates me, I'm a mom as, as everyone knows, and we get frustrated because things happen, you know, things happen with our kids or our partner or just in life in general, and it's, it's.[00:07:00]
What we don't wanna do is react super negatively and strongly in the moment. We do sometimes 'cause we're, we're human. But we, that's not what we're aiming to do. So in those moments, I, I now can take myself away and just be like, and know what to do with that space. Yes, there's the breathing and the getting back to self, but then like, okay.
Challenge some of the thoughts that I'm having that are making me feel so frustrated in that moment. Yeah.
Louisa: Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, we feel frustrated as parents and then we don't show up the way that we always wanna show up. And then of course, then we beat ourselves up for not showing up.
Yeah. The way that we wanted to show up. Right, exactly. So it's just constant as a parent, it's just really constant. I think you really have to have a lot of self-compassion as a parent and, you know, and always do better. And I, I remember even my daughter saying, mom, I, I feel like you're a better mom after positive psychology.
Wow. And that was really great because I really did wanna [00:08:00] change my mental health and, you know this will really make mothers feel guilty. One of the number one contributors to children's depression is the, is the depression rates of the mother. So we have a huge influence on our kids. So the healthier that we can be, the healthier, the happier.
You know, this is why when I always hear mothers say, well, I have to put myself last because, you know, my kids are more important, so I'm always last. And it's like, I don't, I don't wanna hear that. Because if you're putting yourself last, you're not gonna be doing the things necessary to. Be the best mom that you can be.
You know, you have to, , put yourself first. Uh, not all the time, but there has to be times where you're putting yourself first and saying, I need this for my mental health. You know, for me to be able to, , show up as my best self. And then guess what? The kids eventually are gonna [00:09:00] move on. If you've done your job, they're gonna go off to school or work or move you live in another country, or find partners and leave and, you know, , and then you're gonna kind of be left with yourself, right?
So, you know, if you haven't been thinking about what is good with you, what you want out of your life, what you want to achieve, what how you want to be, you know, how you wanna give to the world, you're gonna kind of be stuck in that place when your kids are gone and going, what? Well, what now? Yeah,
Mel: exactly.
And that's that. I can agree with every single part of that. And to add to it the, when we do say I wanna take time for myself, sometimes what I do anyways is trick myself by saying, I wanna take time. I wanted to take, put myself first so that I'm putting my kids first, because it's the same thing, right?
Yeah. It really is. It might not feel like it in that exact moment with the screaming child behind the door because you had to [00:10:00] walk away or with, you know, whatever it might be. But it is, it's the same thing. By putting myself purse first, I am putting my kids first.
Yeah,
Louisa: a hundred percent. I agree.
Mel: Yeah.
It's that prevention. Okay, so we've dove. We dove right into positive psychology, but tell us a little bit about you. Who is Louisa Jewel?
Louisa: Oh, it's a very broad Who, who is Louisa? Well, you know, , I'll tell you that my story around positive psychology and how I got into it is that I was struggling, you know, as a mother, and I was a new mother.
And, , then I, I, I suffered through several miscarriages. So I found that I was, , really in a dark place. I, uh, I was going through some other big things, , you know, big challenges in my life. So it was all kind of culminating together. And then, and then I, I asked, I remember I was at work and the, the psychologist just happened to be there for an event.
, and I said [00:11:00] to her, how do you know when you need help? You know, how do you know when it's time to go see a therapist? And she said, Louise, it's when you're not coping well. You know, if you find it difficult to get outta bed or you can't get outta bed, or you don't feel like gonna work or you can't be there with your kids or, , and then, so then I thought, okay, I think that's me.
I think I need some help coping. And I wish more people would be open to going to see a therapist, because seeing a therapist really kind of changed my life and I realized that the therapist was doing things, reframing my thoughts. You know, they had techniques and it was really, it was very, very helpful.
And I'd leave and then come back when things fell apart again. And finally I said to my therapist like, I need to know what, you know, I can't just keep coming back here. Like, I know you're reframing my thoughts. I need to know those techniques. And so I say, gimme some books. So he. Gave me some [00:12:00] books and that's when I discovered Marty Seligman's books, authentic Happiness and Learned Optimism.
And I was just blown away that there's actually a science behind this. You know that psychologists are. Uh, you know, they're using cognitive behavioral therapy, but that's something that actually I can learn and apply to myself. So if cognitive behavioral therapy helps me get out of a depression, then wouldn't cognitive behavioral therapy keep me, you know, in a healthy space, you know, to have healthy ways of living and thinking.
Right? Cognitive is much more around how we think about things. So, you know, that was just, uh, life transforming. And then I did my master's degree in applied positive psychology at the University of Pennsylvania. And applied everything to myself, and I just completely transformed and, and I think that, you know, life has taken me up and down.
And [00:13:00] again, I went, I thought, oh, you know, I've been through hard times and then another thing hits and I'm like, wow. Like I. I really need this stuff to keep me afloat. 'cause the, I would say the past, you know, seven years have been just, so, so difficult. And then the pandemic hit and it was just, you know, I really think that, , I, I always say thank goodness for positive psychology in my life because I really would probably be, you know, clinically depressed, you know, right now if, if I didn't have those.
And, and I think, you know, I just came back from a six month trip traveling around the world. , and so I love traveling and I, I really have never led kind of a conventional life because I always believe that life is abundant and that I'll be able to create whatever life that I want. And it's not always easy, you know, you know?
Right. Building your own [00:14:00] business. It's not an easy thing, but it is the best thing. I think if you can do it, especially as a mother, because then you can make your own hours and, and , and focus on the things that you really love to do. And I think, you know, that's, that's what I try to do with my life. I just don't, I just don't, conform to every, you know, sort of the normal, I kind of just do what I want.
It's so funny 'cause some stranger on Instagram, I guess. , left me an audio message that says, so I guess you just go around doing whatever you want.
And I wrote back and I said, mm-hmm. I guess, I guess that's what I do. So you wanna know who is Louisa Jewel? I think that's, that's a lot of, you know who I am. Yeah. That doesn't mean I don't work really hard to make the money that I make to pay for, , every, you know, everything in my life. 'cause you know, you gotta eat and, [00:15:00] uh, pay for your roof over your head and stuff like that.
But, uh, you know, so I work hard and I play hard. Yeah. But I do it the way I wanna do it.
Mel: That's amazing. And I think what really stands out to me there is that you're not so often with positive psychology that term, if I say it to someone who has never heard it before, the positive part comes out. Right?
They're like, oh, so you just walk around happy all the time. Well, you must just have a great life. And actually what you're saying is, no, I have a really hard life, right? I have a great life and I have a really hard life. And that it's not that I just got, you know, given the right cards, I worked really, really hard, or you worked really, really hard to get yourself to the space where you can manage those challenges that are coming your way at various
Louisa: points.
Yeah, and I think, you know, some people look at a certain life and say, oh, I want that, but. I can't do that. And I [00:16:00] think the difference when you learn the tools is you look at a life and say, I want that. What do I need to do to go have that and get that? And you're right, Mel, those steps sometimes can be very difficult.
You know, sometimes you've got stress and anxiety and think, what the heck am I doing? I have no idea if I can make this happen. Or look at that person over there, they're already doing this. What am I gonna contribute? Or you know, you have those things that come up, but then you have the tools to say no.
Uh, here's what you can do. Here's a small step you can take. And step by step, then the next thing you know a year later, you know, you are living that, that life that you saw. So I think that's the difference, right? You know, remember Caroline, I dunno if you know Caroline Miller. She's written a bunch of books getting grit and, and other books, and she always wears a different color.
Nail polish on her hand to have color. 'cause she loves [00:17:00] colorful, she, everything is colorful. And uh, she was going through the grocery store and the woman, the cashier said, oh, I love your nails. That's so great. And she said, oh, well, you know, you could have those nails too. And she said, oh, no, no, I couldn't.
It's like so interesting. Yeah, I know, right? Your beliefs about what you can do and what you can achieve it. That's everything. That's absolutely everything. Because if you don't think that it could ever happen for you, you're not going to behave in ways to make it happen. Why would you? Right. You know, like I don't jump off my balcony because I know I can't fly.
Right. So that, you know, that solid belief keeps me, you know, in my condo, you know, you know what I mean? Or using the stairs. Yeah. That's, you know what I mean? Like when I have a strong belief. And the same is for that. If I have a strong belief [00:18:00] like, well that could never be me. , you know, but I always try to find like the baby steps, you know, the little steps.
What's one little step I can take towards that? I can do that. Mm-hmm. You know? So yeah. Yeah.
Mel: Yeah. And that just, you know, I can't, I can't get myself away from the metaphor of the balcony now. 'cause I'm like, well, if you decided you really wanted to jump off that balcony, your tiny step might be to like, learn to hang glide or like, you know, there's always something we
Louisa: can do.
Yeah. And yeah, exactly. Although I, it's not, it's not a desire, so we'll just leave it at that's, we'll just let it be. Yeah.
Mel: I'm okay with not jumping off my balcony. I do not recommend anybody jumps off their balcony, by the way. But
Louisa: there are some people who do jump off buildings with those parachute things, do you know what I mean?
Like, there, and, you know, they wanna do that and good for them. You know, that's not, that's not for me, but there are people that say, yeah, you know what, it'd be really cool to jump off a [00:19:00] building. And I, and I think to myself, wow, I could never do that. Mm-hmm. And I don't, and so I don't move towards that, you know what I mean?
So, yeah. And there's
Mel: a difference between kind of, you don't have a desire to do that, right? Right. Uh, but if you did, then it would be important to, to inch towards the desire to do that. Right. To this tiny, I call them laughable steps that we can take. 'cause they're so tiny that it's like that's not a step.
Right. Yeah. Towards whatever it is that we wanna
Louisa: do. Yeah. And so, you know, so sometimes people, you know, will say, oh, I have no desire to do that. But really they do. They really do have a desire to do it. But they're so, you know, I was thinking to myself that I think one of the big biggest contributors to mental illness is your inability to admit that you need help.
You know, like in that moment when I asked the therapist, you know, How do you know when you need help? And she said, when you're not coping [00:20:00] well, I needed to have the courage to look at myself and say, Louisa, there's nothing wrong with you. You're okay. You're actually going through a really hard time. It's okay that you need professional help.
And that's the way I spoke to myself. But I had to have the courage to be vulnerable because some people are so guarded that they can't even admit that, you know, they think there's something wrong with them, and there's nothing wrong with you if you're going through a hard time. Like we said, life is hard.
It's normal as a human being to find it difficult to get through life because life, you know, can be difficult. , but it's having the courage to be able to say, yeah, you know what? Maybe I do need some help with this and to have the self-compassion to say that, that that's okay. So I think it does take courage.
You know, courage can be really one of the number one things to live a really [00:21:00] happy life. Because without courage we just wouldn't go after our dreams, you know, our, our audacious goals. Right. We just wouldn't go after them because we'd just be too afraid all the time. Yeah,
Mel: exactly. And that courage does involve being afraid, right?
Yeah. It's being afraid and still deciding to do it. Wel afraid.
Louisa: Exactly. Exactly. And doing it anyway. Yeah. Yeah,
Mel: exactly. Yeah. And I wonder if you can, is there an example of when your, in your life, when you've been able to really pick up that courage and say, this is what I really wanna do, so I'm gonna start to move to towards it.
Louisa: Well, I think in, you know, I founded the Canadian Positive Psychology Association and you know, I remember thinking this is, you know, so many people were asking me, it was such a new field at the time. No one had really heard of it in Toronto in my circles. And, , no one was really doing it. And, you [00:22:00] know, and then, so I, I, people would come to my office and I'd have like three people in my boardroom and then, you know, 15 people in my boardroom and then, 40 people in my boardroom.
And I, I still have this mental picture of some people were sitting under the table and, you know, like there's so many people. Uh, and then a friend said, look, I've got a big office. Why don't you bring people there? And you know, and so finally I just said, you know, I think I need to formalize this. But, you know, I was afraid, I was afraid to put myself out there.
Like, who am I to be, you know, to head the Canadian Positive Psychology Association. And uh, and, and I think one of the things that helped me be courageous is I met some like-minded people. You know, I sat down with people and said, what do you think? What do you think about this? You know, what if we started the Canadian Positive Psychology Association?
And they were like, I am in. I'm in. And I think that helps, , you know, [00:23:00] to be courageous. So there, there's two ways it could go. If you're talking to the wrong, if you wanna be more courageous, I think if you're talking to the wrong person, right? You could tell your dream to somebody and they're like, what, who the heck are you to do that?
Or What's that? Or you don't, you don't have the skills to do that. Right? So, and that's usually like a family member, right? Right. Which you think your family members are gonna be so supportive, and they're the worst, only because they're worried about you. They don't want you to make a fool of yourself, or they don't want you to lose money, or they don't want you, you know?
Right. Like, you know, they're worried about you. So they're not saying it necessarily to be mean, but they're worried. Right. So you could. I always say, don't tell your dreams to those people. You know, tell your dreams to people who really get it and who really will support you and who really believe that you can do something, you know those.
And so I think for me, that was the turning point is just, you know, having [00:24:00] people who were like, yeah, oh yeah, we can definitely do this. And that was really hard. And there were moments where I thought, oh my gosh, I've just destroyed my life. And then it was going to that support group saying, are you kidding?
You haven't destroyed your life at all. You're fine. Everything's gonna be fine. You know? And it's. It's always been, I think for me, the support group that has gotten me through everything, because your mind when things go really bad, as much training as you have, you know, sometimes your mind can just be in the catastrophe of it all.
And so having those good and knowing those reliably safe people, right. You know, they're reliably safe people who can who will be there and not just be nice. I don't always want people, oh, the we are, you look so nice and you know, and everything's good and every always perfect. No, I want people who kinda are also there to challenge me and to be realistic as well.
You know, [00:25:00] those I find are the most supportive people, but I think that's a game changer for me, you know, to have that support group. And I have a really good support group. And I create them, I create them, I have mastermind groups, I have accountability partners. You know, I create those systems because they are so important.
Mel: And, and that's a really good point. Well, there's a couple really good points in there. So one is just that importance of community and other people surrounding us and the right kind of people who are, are helping us to be a better person, right? Yeah. And that's through support, when that is what's needed.
And that's through challenge. When that is what need. What's needed, right. Exactly. So when, when we go out and we wanna share this big, audacious dream, it's, it's like you say, let's find the person who's at that point. I don't want realistic. That's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for someone who will go big and crazy with me.
Yeah, right. Exactly. And, and then once I've kind of. [00:26:00] Got the support around me and, and belief a little bit more that, that something along the lines of this big huge thing is possible. Then I wanna, I wanna chat with say, my husband who's the realistic type and say, okay, like how do I make this happen? Like, show me how I don't need you to tell me whether it's possible or not.
What I need you to do is show me, like, let's work together and figure out what we could do here. Right. , and those are just different phases of, of the journey and different types of people that we need for different types of things. And I think it's amazing that you have found those groups and that you have actually more importantly, which the second point you've created those groups.
I
Louisa: created the groups. Yeah, for sure. Right.
Mel: Yeah. Because loneliness is like the epidemic at the moment. Loneliness is so huge in a world, and I think for moms especially, it can be really easy to fall into the trap of thinking, I'm the only one that thinks this way. I'm the only one that feels this way right now, and therefore not reach out for.
[00:27:00] Other people, even just to make friends. It's like, oh, I'm, everybody else has as many friends as they need, so I don't wanna bother them.
Louisa: Right. Yeah. What is that word? Like, oh, I'm gonna bother them. I hear that. I hear that. But you know, I think, you know, in our lives, My, my friend always says, my, one of my girlfriends says, you know, men are always gonna come and go, but our girlfriends are what's, you know, gonna be there.
And, you know, , you know, and I think that as mothers we need to have those nights every week where we're going out with our girlfriends because we need to maintain those girlfriend bonds. We need somebody to be able to have those talks with. And you know, when, when our partners or things fall apart, Our girlfriends are there for us.
, and, you know, divorce rates are high. Or, you know, my, I, I went through a separation,[00:28:00] and then my ex-husband got sick and, and died and who was there through all of that, my girlfriends, you know, and my daughters, , you know, and I loved this man very much. We stayed very close friends and I, I actually moved him back in and, and my kids and I, we took care of him until he died.
So that was hard. And again, who got me through that? My girlfriends. And if I had just dropped my girlfriends when I got married you know, I, I would not have had them in my life, but because I was a devoted girlfriend, you know, who was there for them through the good time, through good times and bad times, I'm not just there through bad times.
We really believe that we need to have fun. Like, I have several trips booked with my girlfriends, you know, already. And, you know, until February of next year, you know, like we are always having fun. I was just up at my friend's cottage, you know, this weekend [00:29:00] and, you know, I think it's just really important that we maintain those fun friendships.
I've got my masterminds for work and I've got my girlfriends my fun times. Where did fun go? Like, you know, some people, like I remember when I was in my forties and my husband and I, we'd go dancing. And people would say, oh, I don't what you go dancing. I don't go, I have kids. I'm like, yeah, I've got kids.
They're with the babysitter, you know, or they're at the, or at grandma's house for the weekend, you know? Why can't we still have fun in our forties or when we have kids? What, what do you think that is, Mel? What do, why do you think people have a hard time playing and having fun? I think it's,
Mel: it's,
firstly, play is one of my strongest values and I am a massive fan of it. And I struggle with it because I think as we grow [00:30:00] up, we are, we are taught that play is no longer, no, no longer acceptable unless it's with a child. And even then it's hard to do still, to be honest and. There's, there's something about how our play changes a little bit as we get older as well.
And maybe we're not taught how to play anymore in a way, or given like the, the space to explore what that means for ourselves. Because play for me now is I like to play with possibility. I wanna get some, some people out. And I wanna think big and I wanna dream big and think like, okay, we wanna go to the moon.
Let's figure out how, you know, I just, even if it doesn't happen, I don't care about the happening part. What, what I love is the play of exploring what could be possible. And that's one of my favorite things to do. Or to go to the beach with my kids and play in the sand. But I have to force myself a bit more, right?
'cause I, 'cause I also wanna sit and relax in the sand. And [00:31:00] something about play shifts in us, I think as we get older and. Kids are a glorious reminder of the power of play. My daughter, sometimes just the other day, like straight to the heart, was like, mama, come play with me. You never play with me anymore.
I'm like, oh, oh God. But it makes me reassess, right? I'm like, I think I'm playing with her, but in her eyes, and who knows? Maybe that's just in the last two days. Maybe that's longer. We don't know what she's talking, like thinking in her mind about that. But in her mind, she's like, mom, I'm giving you an invitation to come and play more.
Please come like, stop being so serious and planning whatever has to happen next. Just come play, come do some crafts with me or come just be right. Yeah,
Louisa: yeah,
Mel: exactly. What a beautiful invitation that is. And sometimes as much as that hurts to hear, that's exactly what we need to hear is this invitation from kids or friends or whoever it is to come to come and
Louisa: play.[00:32:00]
And, and I think even going back to, you know, permission to be human, permission to play. Mm-hmm. You know, and again, I think it comes back to courage. Yeah. Because you're right, society says, oh, that's silly. Oh, you know, you, you're going to Burning Man. Like I remember when people, when I said I was going to Burning Man, first of all, people were.
Excited. 'cause they would never go. Yeah. They're like, you're gonna burning Man. I wish I could go again. You could if you wanted to. Right. And what I love about Burning Man is you spend the whole week playing, it is full on. Adult play for seven days. You're climbing on structures, you're painting your body, you're, you know, you're dancing, you're, you know, any time of day there and night, there's something fun and interesting.
And, you know, somebody spent hundreds of thousands of dollars creating these things so that people could just [00:33:00] play for seven days and you're wearing costumes and, and you're right. Some people would look at that and say, oh, that, that's ridiculous. You know how, you know you're. You're older now. That's so silly.
Right. And you have to have the courage to say, I really don't care. Yeah. I really don't. It is Anna. I love it. Right?
Mel: Yeah. And that's what my, I need, that's my body needs my mind, my mind needs,
Louisa: right? Yeah. Yeah. But also like on my death bed, I'm gonna say, damnit, I went to Burning Man. You know, when I'm 96 in diapers, sitting around watching soap operas, you know, I'm gonna be like, I don't care 'cause I went to Burning Man.
You know? Yeah. Like it's, you live, you live only one time, right? You live only once. And that's how I look at it, is that we only live once. So go and dance and go to Burning Man and go and play with your kids and you know, get out with your girlfriends and, and work out. Even some people feel that they can't.
Oh my gosh, how can I [00:34:00] go and do my workout in the morning? Well, You need to do that to stay healthy. Right. That's not even, that's not even play, that's hygiene as far as I'm concerned, you know? Yeah. But we need to be able to, you know, give ourselves permission to, to live our best lives and then our kids see that, right?
And then our kids feel the, the permission to be able to live their best lives as well. Yeah.
Mel: I love that. There's, so there's two real themes that came out there. One is, is the play element and the other was community and connection with other people. And, , I wonder, what would you say to people, to moms especially who.
Maybe feel like they don't have that group of girlfriends they can go out and play with yet, what, what could they do to, to make a step towards that?
Louisa: You know, I say be the change you wanna be. Call a friend, call, you know, I met so many mothers in the. Playgroups or at the park you know, or at my [00:35:00] kids' school, like I still have a friend, you know, our kids went to school together and we still hang out and it's, you know, 25 years later, 20 years in the making.
Right. And our kids are not friends anymore. Right. Not, not that anything happened. They still, you know, like they still like each other and everything. They just went their separate ways in terms of, you know, their lives. But we are still good friends and we still love each other. So, you know, and that just comes from, Hey, do you want to go out for dinner?
We'll go sit and chat and have dinner and have a glass of wine, or do you wanna go see a movie or do you wanna go for a walk? You know, a, a run, you know, with, I remember years ago with this particular friend, she was swimming and I said, where do you swim? And she said, no, university of Toronto. And I said, I would love to come with you if that, if you.
I want someone to go with you. She said, I would love that. So we would go, like, I think the kids were at school and on, I think Wednesday afternoons or something, [00:36:00] we would swim. I would do the backstroke while she was doing the front stroke, and we'd chat the whole, like the whole swim. So we got exercise, we chatted, we talked, and that's how, you know, we developed, uh, our friendships.
But, you know, I think this idea that we're gonna bother somebody, guess what? They're probably sitting at home saying, geez, I wish somebody would ask me out for a glass of wine. You know? Or we don't have to drink when we do it. But, you know, there's, I'm sure there's lots of people who are thinking, I really wish I had more friends.
And probably your invitation will be so welcomed. And then what's the worst that could have when they say, oh, I'm too busy. Well, okay, move on to the next person. You know? Yeah. Right, right.
Mel: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I know that, you know, this has definitely been a challenge in my times. 'cause I moved to Vancouver Island from England during a pandemic.
So like, finding people to connect with was, especially for those first couple of years, really [00:37:00] challenging. , and I think always has been, 'cause I don't like small talk. I wanna get into the goods. So the stories I would tell myself would be like, you know, people would be intimidated of the fact that I want to talk about their deepest, darkest dreams.
Right.
Louisa: You've gotta ease them in, you gotta ease them in, you gotta ease them
Mel: in. Yes. And, and I was, I eventually, I kind of had to, I had to rewire and re reframe I should say that story in my head of like, I'm not gonna go in and, and go way deep, but I, I might just be like, well, I might be curious more than anything.
Actually my coaching stuff has helped so much because in a conversation with anyone, I'm, I keep telling myself I have, I think we all do. I have to sound smart or I'm, I'm focusing so much on what I have to say. Yeah. I'm not really listening to what the other person's saying that much. And in the end, if you just repeat back and be really curious about what they're saying, yeah.
Then the conversation [00:38:00] goes much smoother and it's more interesting. And then you get to the fact that they like to swim at the pool and that, oh, like, oh, like I've always wanted to swim, or, I really like swimming. And you move on to that more naturally. Right? Yeah. That's definitely what well, I continue to learn each time and, uh, is, is so, so
Louisa: important.
Well, and I think too, if we just have this calm confidence that, you know, yeah. I'm smart enough, I, I don't have to think about what I'm saying because I'm sure whatever comes outta my mouth is gonna be intelligent enough. And even if I don't have my most intelligent moment, it doesn't mean I'm not smart or I'm not intelligent, or I'm not savvy.
Mm-hmm. Or, or cool. Yeah. You know I think, and the other
Mel: person's probably just thinking to themselves about what they're gonna say next. Right? Yeah. Yeah. That's right. They just talk smart. Like, that's just kind of the way it works, right? Yeah. So in some ways, it doesn't matter
Louisa: what we say. I think, you know, and I think this, you know, you know about the work of Dr.
[00:39:00] Carol Dweck and the fixed mindset and the, and the growth mindset and, and really I think the growth mindset is about caring less about what other people think, you know? And oh my gosh, I remember when I read that book, I thought I have a fixed mindset. A hundred percent, you know?
You know, a hundred percent. I have a fixed mindset. And , and I thought to myself, you know, there, I definitely have to change this because I really, really, really care too much about what other people think. And when I stopped caring about what other people think, oh my gosh, I mean, Life was glorious. And I don't mean that I, you know, I don't care about what my clients think because obviously I wanna do a good job and I care about what my friends and family think 'cause I don't wanna hurt their feelings.
And I wanna be a good friend and a good parent and a good community member and, you know, , I just care less about if I wanna go dancing. I don't care if people don't like that 'cause I'm not hurting anyone. I'm not [00:40:00] doing anything wrong. If I wanna go to Burning Man, I don't care, you know, what other people think.
That's, and, and actually people think it's cool as hell, you know what I mean? So we sometimes think, oh my gosh, people are really gonna think badly of us. And then the next thing you know, they actually think you're really cool for doing those things. So, Know, I think that's a real tool that we have to care less about.
And if something comes outta my mouth, that's stupid. I, I don't think I'm a stupid person. I just say, oh yeah, well maybe that wasn't the smartest thing I said, but you know what, I'm still a pretty smart person. I don't know everything, you know, it's okay. Yeah.
Mel: It's a really disconnecting the action from who you are as a person.
Right. And so if you could, could you give us a little description, a little micro tutorial? What about growth mindset? Oh,
Louisa: well, you know, again, in a nutshell it's about, , not focusing on looking good and instead focusing [00:41:00] on getting good. That's kind of my nutshell for growth mindset. And it's really about, so when we believe that intelligence and talent is fixed, you're either born that way or you're not, then you're always protecting.
How you're showing up because if I show up as stupid one day, then you. Kind of you, you have in this, in your brain, that means I'm stupid. Like all of me, like I'm just a stupid human being. If I fail that test, that means I'm stupid. Right? Whereas we know that if you fail that test, maybe you just didn't study enough.
Maybe that's not your forte. Maybe that's not your strength. Maybe if you did another test, you'd get an A plus. Right. So you're not just born that way. 'cause if you work really hard and study and practice through experience, you can get there. And that's the growth [00:42:00] mindset to believe. Yeah, I'm born with a certain intelligence, I'm born with a certain level of talent.
And if I really wanna be good at something, if I work hard and put the effort in, then I will succeed and do better. And become smarter at it, become more intelligent at it, become more talented in that area. And as I do it, I know I'm not gonna be good at it right off the bat because I've never done it before.
I'm not good at it, not yet. And that's Carol Dweck's favorite word is yet Right. But if I'm always embarrassed to go and try something and fail in front of other people. 'cause I care more about how I'm gonna look. I'm never gonna try those things. I'm never gonna give myself the opportunity to get good at things that I really wanna get good at.
So, you know, I think we, we have to give ourselves the permission to go out, try things, not look so [00:43:00] good, fail at them and say, who cares? I'm actually getting better and one day I'm gonna be really good because I'm putting in the effort. And I think that's what is at the heart of growth mindset, is to care more about just learning and growing and, and care less about what other people think as you're doing that, you know, I, uh, a kid doesn't think, oh my gosh, look at how stupid I look, learning how to walk.
You know, they just go and learn how to walk. Right. And they're really not self-conscious and thinking, geez, people must think I'm, you know, I'm really awful at walking right. Just go and try it. We don't do that as adults. Are you kidding? We'd be too embarrassed, you know, to go out and and do something like that.
And we have to just get over that. You know, when people talk about fear of failure, it's really not fear of failure. It's really fear of being socially evaluated. That's the fear, because if I said, you know, Mel, I'm gonna put you on, [00:44:00] you know, the planet over there and you're gonna try all these things with podcasts and this, and business ventures, and you're gonna have this fake audience that's gonna help you perfect it all.
And then when you come back, it'll all be perfect. You go, yeah, okay. Sign me up because then I'm not failing in front of anybody. Right? Wouldn't we all love to do that, right? Mm-hmm. Because it'd just be so much easier. So really it's not fear of failure, it's really fear of evaluation. And if you can get over that fear and, you know, and again, to remind yourself that often people are not saying, oh, look, she failed at something.
Instead they're saying, Look at her. Look at her. She's like really going after it. You know, like with your podcast, right? You're, you're inspiring so many women and so many moms and saying, look at Mel has a podcast, you know, this is fantastic and good for her. Right. You know, it's inspiring when you go out and do stuff.
Mel: Definitely. And that [00:45:00] action does create that, and my response to anybody who says something similar to that to me is like, and you can too. Yes. Yeah, it's amazing that I'm doing this and you can too. And it did take me four years to do it. Like, it's not like I just jumped in with fully confident ability to just start talking to the air, especially when it's just me talking.
Right. It just took practice. I did once that I didn't, I didn't put out there, you know, like there's lots of different things that came along the way. And the point is that, that they can too anyone at can if that's what they really wanna do. And Exactly. Thank you for that description of growth mindset and what, what comes to my mind is how it relates, how what, how developing our own growth mindset really can positively impact our children as well.
If there was one thing we really worked on it, I think it would be growth mindset that would, that would really make a difference. You know, I look at my son who, [00:46:00] who I. Somewhere along the way, he's five now, has developed, he does go into not having a growth mindset and he'll get really frustrated and he is like, I never any catastrophize and, and everything along the way, I'll never be able to do it.
I'll never this, I'll never that. And I I love that you pointed out the word yet. 'cause that's what we use a lot. It's like, I can't tie my shoes yet. Yeah. I can't get my sock on yet. And he just looks at me. He's like, stop saying that. You know, but it, but it gets in his mind. And I think what comes to my mind is this importance of us doing things in front of our kids and in front of the world that do scare us and that we're not good at yet.
And showing others that that's what we do, helps them to try things too. So an example that comes to mind is, My daughter seems to have a natural, uh, desire for music. Both kids actually, but daughter especially. [00:47:00] And my husband's really good at the piano, at least I think he's good. He doesn't think he's good.
But he went to like grade eight or nine or something when he was a kid. And then actually stopped when, uh, when like a 12, he was 17 and a 12 year old was better than him. So I was like, oh no, you should keep going. But anyways, the point of the story is that he goes and plays this super fancy song on the piano and my kids are kind of intrigued, but they don't really do anything else.
So recently I was like, I'm gonna download an app that will teach me how to play piano. And it is like starting from the super basics. And I sit there with my iPad in front of me and it takes me through the different lessons and I make mistakes and my kids are standing there watching me and they wanna come and sit and play.
Right? Nice. Love that. They wanna come and sit and say, because. It's accessible. Yeah. And because they see that I struggle with bits and I have to do it over and over and over again.
Louisa: Right. Yeah. And they see that you're starting Exactly. That. Oh, this is where we start. Yeah. And [00:48:00] you know, I think when you show them that baby step, they go, oh, I, I can do that.
Like, I can't do what dad does. Yeah. But I can do that. So it changes their belief that they could actually do it too. Yeah,
Mel: exactly. Yeah. So with that, like what do we learn from that? What else in life can we show our kids? Yeah. Even with our dream like that, actually we aren't gonna be good right away at it and that we're gonna try it anyways and we're gonna let them see the fact that we're not good at its.
Yeah. And that's a hard thing to do, as you say, because as humans, our biggest fear in general is to look bad and be isolated from other people because we need that connection with other people so strongly. So it takes some work to acknowledge that fear and say, actually, I wouldn't be isolated for this or it's unlikely or this is what I'd do if I was, I'd find the other people that wouldn't.
And you know Yeah. To work through that fear so that we can actually just show up and try [00:49:00] new things.
Louisa: Well, exactly. And I think, again, this goes back to the support groups. So role models, seeing people who are doing it, that helps us to believe, yeah, I can, I can do that too. But also to say, you know, I went out and I tried this thing and man, did it ever fail, you know?
And so, you know, with my accountability partner, we go through, well, what happened? What did we do? You know, what did we do that didn't work well? And what did we do that actually did work well? And what are, what would we change for next time? And just get back up and try again. You know? 'cause often we feel compelled to kind of give up after the first try 'cause we're so embarrassed.
And instead you have to just be able to say, no, I learned a lot and we're just gonna move on. Even
Mel: better, just laugh at it. Sometimes things happen like that. Yeah. She's hitting the fan in the house somehow. And I'm like, and I just look at the situation and I just start laughing because this is the most ridiculous thing in the world.
Louisa: Yes. [00:50:00] But I think it's good. I, I think it's good if we can also learn and say, well, what, what did we do? Because sometimes again, we wanna just throw the baby away with the bath water and say, screw it. You know what I mean? Yeah. Just be able to say, well, what did you know? I'm just gonna keep focused on the goal and I, I really, you know, and what did I learn and what am I gonna do differently?
Like, I'm doing standup comedy. So I'm doing another set now. So I'm starting tonight, actually tonight is my first class. And I do, I create sets with groups of people 'cause I just find it a lot easier. And you know, the only way you think you're funny as hell when you write something. But the only way you actually know if you're funny is if you get up and, and say it.
And I, I've already created a bit of, a bit for this group. And then as I say it, as I get up, even just say it to myself, I think, oh, that's not funny. You know? And then I'll get up in front of them and if they don't laugh, I'll say, well, you're not funny like that, that I don't, I actually [00:51:00] don't say, you are not funny.
I say The material's not funny. You have to change the material. 'cause if you say you are not funny, you'll never get back up. But I always say the material's not working. Change the material and then get back up. Right. And then, then the next time, oh, more people are laughing. You go, okay, it's working. So I think the more we can sort of just focus on the task and not worry so much about us.
Yeah. You know, it, it helps us to be, to do things like standup comedy, which is, you know, exciting and terrifying at the same time.
Mel: Exactly. Isn't there a word that combines exciting and terrifying? Oh, I,
Louisa: that would be a good word. Exciting
Mel: or
Louisa: something like that. That would be a good word. That is doing standup comedy.
Ter excite. Yeah. There's gotta be a word. I'll, I'll have to think about it. Maybe I'll come up with it in my, in my routine. Yeah. Yeah,
Mel: exactly. Brilliant. I love that you're out there doing that and, and really taking something. I'm assuming that scared you quite a bit when you first [00:52:00] came into it, and probably still does, you know?
Oh, yeah. Like standing up there. That's, that's. That's full on fighting that fear or ex embracing maybe even that fear of being isolated because someone's not gonna laugh. Like that's like the biggest fear, right? Yeah. Someone's either gonna laugh for the wrong reason or not gonna laugh, and it's, and it's amazing that you can get up and stage and, and just take that on.
Well, I think
Louisa: feel that courage that we were talking about and I think if you're just focused on, look, I'm just getting up in front of people just to see what material works and what material doesn't. It's not me, it's, you know, and it's really hard to do you know, 'cause you take it personally 'cause it is you getting up there and you know what I mean?
But the more you can, and I remember, I don't know if you remember, but Jerry Seinfeld, you know, the most successful comedian probably of all time, right? He, he scrapped all of his old material and he was [00:53:00] trying new material and he had to go into the clubs as Jerry Seinfeld. And try this new material, you know, talk about growth mindset.
You know, he could really think, well, how can Jerry Seinfeld go and do an embarrassing set? But, you know, he had to do that to try the material. That's the only way he would know. Right. So talk about terrifying. But he, he, his, he said in his documentary, he said, I didn't care if they liked me. I wanted them to like the material.
Like, that's such a growth mindset thing to say. Yeah.
Mel: Yeah. Amazing. Okay. So what's your favorite topic of positive psychology?
Louisa: Well, I think it's the topic of my book, uh, wire Your Brain for Confidence. And it's really the topic of self-efficacy, which is why I wrote about that. And, you know, so you know, I always struggled with anxiety.
I always, you know, I. I was terrified of, [00:54:00] you know, I always wanted to look good. You know, I was really terrified of, of looking bad in front of other people. And and then when I discovered that, that there is a science on how you can actually grow in, in confidence and how you can actually do it, how you put it into practice, and that there are steps you can take to become calmly confident.
Because I would always say I was kind of confident I would go out and do things, but I was always terrified. I always had so much anxiety and then I'd do it and it wouldn't be perfect and I would beat myself up. And so there was no joy. The stuff that I was doing, even if I was successful, I had imposter syndrome, I'd still question, you know, myself and never think that anything was good enough.
Or I'd get 49 glowing reviews of my workshop and what was I focused on? The one person who didn't enjoy my, my workshop, you know? And then, then, then, then I thought it was terrible just because of [00:55:00] one person. So I really didn't wanna live that way anymore. And when I learned about the whole science of self-efficacy, which is the belief that you can be successful in any given domain, and really beliefs are everything.
You really have to believe, uh, everything to feel good about yourself, to feel confident, to have the courage. And so I really, uh, wrote about that in my book about, you know, how to change those beliefs. How, how to actually do it. You know, what's the step by step on how to actually do it. And I think I, I think it's because I was so blown away by that research that I really had to write a book about it.
So that's my favorite. And I remember with my writing coaches, they said, what do you wanna write about? And I said, I'm gonna write about positive psychology. And they said, no, no, too broad. Too broad. What's your favorite topic? And I said, oh, it's gotta be Albert Bender's work on self-efficacy. They're like, that's what you're gonna write about.
It's like, okay.
Mel: I love [00:56:00] that. I love that. And, and it is so, so important. So how would you, can you, if someone wants to work on their self-efficacy, can you give us a little insight into how would someone go about doing that,
Louisa: shifting their beliefs? So there's there's a number of contributors to self-efficacy.
So if you wanna change your beliefs, one of the best ways to change your belief is, so say you think you can't do something, like, let's talk about playing the piano, right? So, you know, let's say you're trying to change the self-efficacy of your children, for example, and their belief as to whether they think they can be as good as their dad one day, right?
So the first one is to have what we call performance experiences. So that is to go and try something. And if you're successful doing it, then that changes your belief. You say, geez, I, I did it. Maybe I can do it again. So that is the most powerful way to [00:57:00] actually change your belief in yourself. And a lot of people say, well, thanks.
If I, you know, if I wasn't so afraid to go and try it, I would do that, right? So the, the. Thing is, is to take baby steps and what do we do with kids? We take them dun dun, you know, like the, the first piano lessons are not learning, you know, Bach, right? We're just doing little, you know, practices and that's how we get better and better and better.
And I'm sure that's how your husband also learned. He's probably started at the beginning, right? So the more we can sort of take baby steps towards something the more we start to then gradually improve and gradually, and then that. And I always say competence breeds confidence, right? So that getting better.
Uh, another thing is to have role models, you know, so, you know, when your kids see you sort of starting like that, they say, well, mom's doing that. Maybe I [00:58:00] can too. Right? Or, you know, I remember my husband used to go to CrossFit and I would think, oh, I can't, I can't do CrossFit. And then I saw a friend of mine who was sort of my frame, you know, my.
Height and whatever. And, and it was a woman and I thought, oh, she's doing CrossFit. Oh, maybe I can do CrossFit. So I think having role models really changes our beliefs as well, which is why it's important to have role models that are, you know, the same gender as us, or the same color as us, or the same age as us.
You know, like seeing people that kind of look like us you know, I think makes a difference in, you know, in whether we believe we can do it or not. You know, another one is social support. Really important. We need to have those people who will encourage us to do, uh, to, to do well and to be there.
For us to say you can do it. You know, having those [00:59:00] support structures, whether you create those with coaches or whether you have friends or family, you know, that will do it for you. I think that that's a big, you know, a really big one. So those are some, some things, you know, that build self-efficacy.
Mel: Yeah. Brilliant. That's really brilliant. So one small wins as I put it. Uh, so really, you know, knowing, seeing that you achieve things, even this tiniest little things, like we said before, laughable steps, right? Oh, well I can do that. Okay. And all of a sudden you're further along than you thought you originally believed that you could
Louisa: do.
Exactly. And you have to believe that you did them. You know, imposter syndrome kind of perpetuates this idea that you go out and you're successful, but you never really think that it's you or you just got lucky or, you know, everyone in the room was smoking pot. You know? You know what I mean? Like, like you have to really believe when you go and do stuff that you did it.
And that's why it's so important. People say, oh, it was nothing. Go, [01:00:00] no, it actually was something, you know, like congratulate yourself, understand that this was an achievement, this moved the needle for you. You know, take it in, don't give it away to somebody else.
Mel: Yeah, I love that. And then having the role models and the social support being the other two.
And I absolutely love all that because it, well, firstly, my little entrepreneurial mind is going crazy right now in all the directions and things that this could be because I started this podcast, but also the, the company, because. I believe in community and in doing things that scare us. And if we can bring people together to do that, then it's everything you just said, right?
Yeah. We're, we're gonna automatically have role models who are just a little further ahead than or than we are. We're gonna get some small wins if we challenge each other to go and do things that scare us. And we'll have that network around us, that community around us say, [01:01:00] yeah, that was freaking amazing.
Wow. How did you do that? Like, can you teach me? Exactly right? Yeah. So yeah, it co it all comes back to that community to help make it happen. Right? And having those dreams. Yeah. Having those, you know, we can have our big audacious dream, which is like the crazy huge one that actually might not happen in your lifetime.
And then we can take it down and say, okay, like within that, what other dreams are there? Right? So if my big dream is, is to create a together world, that's, that's the world I wanna create. Then I just, my job is just to figure out how to do that in little ways throughout my life. Right, exactly. Yeah. So if I can get a group together to go jump in a cold lake in the winter, that's doing all of those things you just mentioned,
Louisa: right?
Yes, very true. If you can do that, you can do anything. Exactly.
Mel: I do. Yeah, exactly.[01:02:00]
Amazing.
Louisa: I can't hear it. I can't hear
Mel: excellent. So thank you for sharing that and about those few steps that we can take. And I'm definitely going out to buy your book and read it and I hope that others will as well.
Is there anything else that you would like to share or give any tips or anything along those lines that you'd like to share before we finish
Louisa: today? No, I think m I've just got a whole box in my books right here, so I'm gonna just pull one out and I think, you know, Why are your brain for confidence, the science of conquering self-doubt?
I think there are a lot of tips in here if people do want to read it. And in fact, I'm gonna be doing some more work around it, which, which I'm excited about. But I think, I think for you know, final tips, I think really it's about, you know, we, we [01:03:00] don't have that many days, you know, on this earth, right?
I'm really starting to get very clear on what I focus my attention on and what I spend my time on. You know, that word spend, it's like I'm careful on what I spend my money on and. Careful on what I spend my time on, and I've only got one life to live. So I, I really do think it's important to be doing what you really wanna do and find the courage and the confidence to go and do it.
Because at the end of your life, there's nothing worse than sitting there regretting what you didn't do. And that's where most people's regrets are. Not what they did do in life, but what they didn't do in life. And think about that. Think about sitting on your death bat and thinking, did I really go out and live the life that I wanted to really live?
Yeah. [01:04:00] So that's what I would say.
Mel: And, and even better, you've trained your brain so much that you don't even think about whether you, whether you've done it because you just
Louisa: know. I just, yeah. And you know, we were, my friends and I were talking about this, we're kind of like the next generation of positive psychology.
You know, we are kind of early adopters, right? Like, , you know, I've been studying this for 15 years now, you know, and incorporating it into everything I do and the work I do. So, you know, we've had many years to kind of have a new version of what positive psychology has really done for us. And I, if someone said, what, what is it that you do every day?
Uh, I really, it'd be so hard to kind of tease apart 'cause you kind of live a certain way after a certain amount of time. So I think, you know, I think it really is about figuring out, you know, how to, how to live a certain way, be a certain way, show up a certain way. It's a whole bunch, a whole bunch of things.[01:05:00]
Mel: I love that. And , I love that you've written that book and I highly recommend people go and read it. And one of the reasons I say that not only is because you're amazing and everything we just talked about is amazing, but because I think there's, there's this, this. Kind of feeling about self-help, self-help books out there.
And there's this, there's a gazillion million of them, right? Yeah. And I think the difference between yours and others who come from the positive psychology side of things, this is all research backed. You're not just saying, my life went this way, so you should do it too. Right? Yeah. It's actually, this is what the science is telling us.
Yeah. And here's some exact ways to go and better your wellbeing.
Louisa: Well, it's good to know the science, because it's easy to say, yeah, go and be courageous. But it's like, well, how do I do that? You know? Can you tell me some of the psychology around fear? Or, you know? Mm-hmm. Do you know what I mean? Or around courage.
Right? And then once you know, some of the psychology, it's so much easier [01:06:00] to, to navigate the, you know, what you want outta life. Yeah, for
Mel: sure. Amazing. So where can people find you should they wi wish to?
Louisa: Well, louisa jewel.com. I'm just launching a new website soon, so I'm very excited about that. And, uh, yeah.
But louisa jewel.com, they can find me there.
Mel: Amazing. I love that. And thank you so much for joining us today and I'm so excited to share all of this with everybody who listens and beyond and Hopefully speak to you again at some point soon. I love following all of your travels and your various bits and pieces and all the amazing work you're doing.
Uh, Louisa, for anybody who works with, , in so many different settings, I think you could say more Louisa, but you do a ton of work out there sharing and spreading this word about positive psychology and how we can really better our wellbeing both with individuals but in organizations and all sorts. So absolutely.
, it's worth [01:07:00] having a look at your website to see what that is. I know if I owned a larger business and needed some, an inspirational speaker in there, I'd be calling you up, so.
Louisa: Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you, Mel. Well, thank you for having me. It's been wonderful and congratulations on your podcast and everything, all the good work that you're doing.
So thank you for everything you're doing in the world. Thanks. [01:08:00] [01:09:00] I
