Episode 8 - Jena
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I am so excited to share with you. Today's episode where I interviewed Jenna Jockas. Who. Is all about nature. And if you know me at all, I'm all about nature as well. And. Jenna's big audacious dream has everything to do with nature and using it in a [00:01:00] way where she can be intentional about creating sensory rich, natural play and learning spaces.
For children and families, and it is absolutely fascinating to hear. About how to do this. So I highly recommend you stick around if you were intrigued by nature and how to build. Sensory rich spaces, but also even if that's not your, your thing. Listen up because it's a fascinating story to hear how Jenna.
Is out there and creating. The big audacious dream that she is so, so craving.
And just before we dive into the interview, Do you make sure if you are a nature lover or would like to benefit from nature to improve your wellbeing, to check out the previous episode, episode nine. Where you were introduced to a 10 day simple challenge. [00:02:00] With permission to notice nature
All right over to Jenna.
Mel: It's so nice to have you here. Jenna and I met, how long ago was that anyways?
Jena: Uh, a year. Well, so been over a year for sure.
Mel: Yeah. Right spring, I think last year, 2022. , in the work that we've been doing, and I've been following what you've been up to, Jenna and I love it as everybody, anybody who's listened to this podcast will realize I absolutely love nature and everything that it can do for the health and wellbeing of everyone.
Yeah. So, um, the fact that that is the theme of your life,
pretty much, and the work you do.
Is, uh, what makes me really wanna have you here, as well as you're a pretty cool person, so that adds to
Jena: it. Appreciate that Right back at you.
Mel: Yeah. So tell me a little bit about, um, or tell others who don't know you already.
A little bit about you.
Jena: A little bit about me., well, [00:03:00] background is I, I grew up on a, a small farm outside of Spokane, Washington. My dad's a veterinarian and my mom helped run his practice. So from a really early age, , I was surrounded in outdoors and all sorts of different animals and combine that with just a natural penchant for just wanting to be outside and, and, and be in nature pretty much all the time.
, that's really kind of helped guide my, um, guide my life. I, I suppose, , Fast forward to now. The, I do a lot of things. My favorite thing is that I'm a mom of twin girls who are now eight years old. I can't believe it. , they're the most beautiful people in my life and, um, teach me more about life than, than I think any other experience I've ever had.
So I'm really grateful for them. For work, I'm a landscape architect and a nature play expert, and for 23 years now, my, my entire career I've been designing [00:04:00] children's outdoor nature-based play learning and therapeutic environments. And so these are like nature play areas in, uh, public parks or, um, early childhood centers, outdoor classrooms.
, I've done quite a few elementary projects, uh, for outdoor classrooms, sensory gardens, , for. Parents' backyards. Uh, I've even designed a sensory garden for middle school here in town. And, um, yeah, just love doing that work. And I've, uh, just somewhat recently transitioned from more design to more teaching.
So I teach folks how to create sensory rich, uh, natural play and learning spaces, , wherever their kids are to grow their children's unique minds, minds, bodies, and spirits. And, , I have a particular focus for children experiencing neurodiversity. So what does that space look like for a child with autism or sensory processing disorders or A D H [00:05:00] D, and how can we tailor, , their play and learning landscape to really support who they are and how they experience the world?
So that in a nutshell is me
Mel: amazing. Amazing. And so well stated as well. Thanks. I love that. And so, like, you know, from a very young age, nature has just been a part of you and a part of your life, it sounds like.
Jena: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Um, one of my mom's , you know, memories of me when I was just able to walk was she'd take my bro older brother and I to the, to the store and it was like a, a Lowe's or Home Depot, you know, hardware store that's got a garden center.
Well, she'd turn around and I'd disappear off to the garden place. So if she lost me, she knew where to find me. And, a couple times, I guess she threatened me, you know, I'm gonna, Jay and I are gonna leave here and we're gonna leave you there. And I just turned around and walked back into the plants. And so it's just, it's just been kind of an innate thing for me just to [00:06:00] connect with, with, , the, you know, the plant world and that, that sort of thing.
Mel: That's amazing. I love that. Yeah. You're just gonna go live
Jena: in the plants at the Yeah, I was totally okay with that.
Mel: Brilliant, brilliant. I love it. , and so, I mean, that kind of answers the question of how this came about. It's really been there since you were a young child. Yeah. And throughout life. Where has that come up again for you?
Jena: Oh, , all over the place. , you know, I just, it's really how I spent my time, my childhood time is outside and, , you know, in our yard we always had a fairly big garden. I was always involved in, , like I said, you know, we always had animals around, whether it was horses or. Dogs and cats, or, I mean, we had camels.
We, I, we had a camel in our backyard when I was in high school because it's mom had rejected it. I guess that happens sometimes. And so we raised it in our yard for a few weeks and it was [00:07:00] just a, I mean, it's incredible. , and so just my parents were really good about taking us, hiking and backpacking and fly fishing and, you know, vacations often revolved around, you know, camping at lakes with my extended family.
And so it was just what we did. And looking back, I am like infinitely grateful to my parents for taking the time to do that. Um, and the, they have the ability to do that, which I'm also really grateful for. There's not a lot of families I believe, nowadays that maybe have the same ability to, to have that time and space to do that.
So I'm, I'm really grateful. And that's one of the, uh, Foundations that I have as a parent now is to really make time every day for my kids to get outside and to interact with, , our little, I have a little sensory garden I've been building at our house. And to stay for them to interact in whatever way feels good for [00:08:00] them because they're developing their own relationship with the natural world now that will just like me, , just support them in their adult life, you know, and help guide some of their decisions and how they parent when it comes time for them to be moms as well.
So you, yeah, it, it's just come up all over the place in my life. I mean, um, because I love to garden so much. My mom was the one who suggested I look into landscape architecture as a career. Um, I had no idea what it was going into it, and so kind of blindly, I started the program at Washington State University and fell in love with.
Very much fell in love with being able to work with plants and design spaces that really, uh, , allowed for, all people just to get closer to nature through garden settings. I just love that aspect of it. Amazing. So
Mel: you really like, it's, it's quite amazing actually, [00:09:00] because so many people aren't sure what they wanna do, right?
Yeah. So long in their life. And it sounds like, well, you might not have been able to put into words necessarily, as you said, you went in blindly into that, but Yeah, there was this like, innate feeling. It was the words Yeah. That, that like, it's gotta be something to do with this
Jena: something. Yes. Along those lines, right?
Mel: Yeah. Yeah. It felt right. For sure. Yeah. And what would you say that that nature
Jena: does for you? , oh my gosh. , it feeds me, There is, uh, energy that I get when I'm out in nature, and it doesn't matter if it, whether it's in my backyard or taking a hike in the woods or at the beach. It, it just, this, it just gives me energy and it, it just kind of brings me back to more of the essence of who I am because our, yeah, I mean, everyone's lives is so busy.
Mine's no different. And, and it gets, you get kinda whacked out, right? You get like anxious and worried and overwhelmed. And [00:10:00] then when you have a moment to get into any sort of green space, for me at least, it just centers me almost immediately. And, um, I mean, quite honestly, sometimes I'll, I'll walk through a garden and the little plants will kind of pop up and go, it, it's like they're greeting me and I can feel it.
It, it is just really kind of interesting. , but, so it's, it's just kind of like a, another friendship. I, I suppose that I would say. Is, is uh, my time outside? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's definitely a relationship and I know a lot of people say it, uh, feel the same way. They feel that as well, and that's why there's so many outdoorsy folks is that they feel that relationship so strongly
Mel: that's so beautiful that it's just that relationship directly with nature.
And, and you're right. I mean, the science shows that for, for everyone we can, uh, yeah. Nature, green space or blue space be in the water [00:11:00] side of things. Yep. Totally. Will, will give us more positive emotion, be in the awe and connected this and joy and all those things. Then if we were to sit inside and not see any, yeah.
Or if we were to sit in a bunch of buildings, and that makes me think like. I have so many questions and I'm, there's two paths we're gonna go down in this conversation, right? So one is about like your journey and that big audacious dream, which I really wanna dig into more. And I also have so many questions about the, like, practical part of the nature of what sure.
We're doing. And, , and the, so I'm gonna, we're probably gonna go back and forth a little bit cuz where I wanna, where I wanna jump to is leading from what we just said is where do we, how do I put it for the people who don't have access to the forest that's outside my window Right. Or have an apartment or [00:12:00] have a tiny little garden in their backyard.
What would your suggestion be for, for them as moms or other adults? Yeah. Or, and or their children. Yeah. And how to, how to benefit from nature still.
Jena: Yeah. I. I, I would just say that that nature still is all around you no matter where you are and where you live in the world. , for some it might take a little more effort to find, uh, a significant piece of green space, say like a park.
So a couple of things. Uh, if you're in an apartment or, or other living situation where you don't have a backyard, you have a balcony or at least a window, so let in as much sunlight as possible. Those fluorescent lights are horrible for us. So get the sunlight, get the house plants, green up your balcony if you can, and if you have kiddos, make them a little space on the balcony.
For their play, uh, play and learning time, [00:13:00] just so they have a space outside that they can access every day. And, you know, maybe you have a, like a little pot of cherry tomatoes or heck, if they love to eat cucumbers, maybe you can put a cucumber in a pot and have a little climbing vine on your railing or something like that.
But just find different ways to bring in nature to your indoor space, and that has just as much benefit, uh, if not more, because it's daily than say, you know, once a week going out on a hike. I mean, you, you want just to bring home as much nature as possible into your, into your indoor settings. And yeah, it's, there's lots of, lots of wonderful, wonderful ways to do that.
, and you know, we could talk about that as a podcast in and up itself, but that's where I would say to start, and then just, if you even have 10 minutes to take your kids outside or just to go outside yourself and sit under a tree, lean against a tree. Sit on the ground, you walk around bare feet because the more [00:14:00] direct contact you have with nature, the more it helps you reset your nervous system.
And there's a whole scientific body of evidence surrounding this. And, and, uh, you might know it as grounding or earthing, but the more physical contact we have through bare feet on the ground, our butts on the ground, laying on the ground, gardening, um, you know, any just direct contact with nature, it actually, um, sends us the earth's healing energy and just resets our nervous system.
And that's the fastest way. If you're in overwhelm or your child's in overwhelm, put them out on the ground. Like seriously, bare feet and all. It's the fastest way to calm 'em down. And that's, that's, you know why so many of us, I mean, recognize, and it's almost intuitively or innately, we know that when we do that, it's going to help us.
Mel: Yeah. I love that. And I, I'm one of those people that does not like to wear shoes very often. [00:15:00] Me neither. And I'm like kinda forced, you know, there's, there's, there's like the reality of, of life and cement doesn't feel very nice and it gets very hot and whatever. Yeah. I do obviously have shoes that I wear a lot, but, um, but I'm, I'm so lucky because I work at home.
I, I wander around all the time in and out without shoes on. Um, I'm sure my house is much dirtier for it, but I don't care. And, and my, my job, apart from this work that I'm doing with the permission to human, to be human like coaching and podcasts and community and such, I also work at a nature preschool, which is also where my appeal, uh, of, of all of your work comes from.
So I'm sure a lot of my questions will relate to that too. Um, but I'm so lucky because in that setting, I take my shoes off frequently, like I'm actually rarely wearing them. Awesome. And the kids are like the, one of the girls, uh, yesterday we walked over to a, just a big grass field at the high school.
And , and [00:16:00] we have a, and we all just started taking her shoes off and she was looking at me like, can I take my shoes off? I'm like, yeah, you can take your shoes off. Like, it feels so funny on my toes, like that grass in between, you know, I'm talking her through it. I was like, what do you think it would feel like on your feet?
And she's like, I don't know. Can I feel it? I was like, yeah. So she takes her shoes off and then she has her socks on and she's like, okay. And then she goes to the next level and she's like, oh, she's like, My dad doesn't let me take my shoes off outside. And she was, but she was so
Jena: pleased. Right? Yeah. This
Mel: pleasure coming over her face.
That one, she was doing something that she wasn't necessarily always that totally in a safe setting. We knew it was grass, it was literally a big field of grass. Um, but also, you know, that she was able to ground, as you say, that, just that Yes. Such an interesting sensory experience to
Jena: have
Mel: different things
Jena: on your feet, right?
Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's how we used to do things. Right. You know? Yeah. As we've evolved, it's, that's how we've been. [00:17:00] Yeah. So it's just, it's nothing new, uh, or revolutionary. It's actually ancient. So we, the more we can do that, the better off we are. Yeah. Amazing. Good for her.
Mel: Yeah, it's, it's brilliant.
And we get that. And that's not a one off. Right? We'll get it know. I know, I know. Um, as well as like this amazing little one that says, um, when we go through the rules, when we kind of go to a new space, we've, we check in and there's always one that says, um, no climbing trees. And I kind of look at him the same.
He says the same one every tangled time. And I was like, you can climb a tree.
Jena: And he's like, wants to climb a tree. Yeah,
Mel: go for it. And the first thing he does is go and try and they're, they're like three, right? They, they, they can't go very high and we don't help them. Right. They have to be able to do it themselves.
Um, we help them by guiding or, you know, being underneath, but Yeah. Um, but we don't lift. And it's wonderful. It's just so glorious to watch and [00:18:00] listen to these kids. Just understand that, oh, like, oh, oh. Like I can interact
Jena: with this. Oh, gosh. And the value that that little man's getting by climbing a tree Yeah.
Yeah. Is just tremendous.
Mel: That's great. We need to find some really good climbing trees nearby. That's for my kids too. And for me, I love climbing a tree. I know. I know. One of my big memories from uh, our garden that we had in England when we lived there was we had this amazing old apple tree that got so many apples, but a lot of them, because it had to mean prune properly over the years were quite, you know, they were at the top of the apple tree.
Um, it was super high, but it was a decent size. Um, and I would climb up to like get them and then Eric would stand underneath me and I'd be like, Hey, here you go. Like, drop them down. And he'd try to catch them and put them in a thing. Um, but it was Glo and, and I remember my little one, she was probably only like two at the time looking at me like, mom, yeah, it's amazing.
Bare feet, [00:19:00] like in the tree. Um, and it just brought me so much joy cuz it brings back that playfulness that kids do have
Jena: naturally
Mel: Oh yeah. Go outside. We don't have to force that. They just have it. They just do it. Yep. Right.
Jena: Yeah. We have to force of it
Mel: ourselves because we've been kind of trained out of
Jena: it.
I think we, we have. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why I say like, kids are our greatest teachers and if we just, um, stop the busyness for a little while in our own lives and pay attention to what they're doing, um, there is so much going on and they can help reconnect us to that playful part in us that is still there and very much alive, but we've just kind of shut them away.
, for, for, , you know, all sorts of different reasons as in as adults, but, , it's very much an important part of us still, and it's, we need to reconnect with them Yeah. As much as possible. Yeah, for sure.
Mel: I'm, I feel really grateful for my daughter, who is my constant reminder of nature. I [00:20:00] think she's a lot like you were uhhuh.
Like she will come home, fretting after school and want to go in and if we go take her into the woods, even just to walk the dog. She resets completely and she's just like one with everything that she sees. She could name any plant. I can't, she can't. Good for her. Right. And good for her. She just absolutely comes alive when she's in the woods.
All right. So beautiful to see. Right? Awesome.
Jena: She just, yeah,
Mel: it's slower, like life
Jena: just slows down, right? Yeah. Yeah. And even
Mel: though I'm like, walk my dog through the woods every day I'll go out on a mission, you know, done. I gotta get back, I gotta do this, I gotta do that. And then again, in the woods and I walk slower.
Jena: Yeah. I'm like, oh yeah, look
Mel: that, and especially if you remember to look up, right? Trees are so cool if you like, lie on the ground and look up at them. Yes. One of my favorite things have a lot of pictures of trees
Jena: from [00:21:00] Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I love that nature invite. It's a, it's a just a, such a wonderful invitation for us to, uh, just live differently.
Because that, that, that pace, I think is where, , a lot of the magic within us resides. And when we can be at that pace with our thoughts and connecting with ourselves and connecting with our environments, then it allows, it just kinda loosens up those pathways for it to come out. Kids already know that.
They, they come out of the, they come out knowing that already, and they probably are so confused by adults' way of life. Like, it doesn't, it doesn't really, doesn't make sense to me. Um, so yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The more we can do that as, as moms and busy, busy people, then um, yeah. We just, there's so much magic within each and every one of us and so many beautiful gifts that we don't allow ourselves to, [00:22:00] um, just allow them to come out.
Hmm. And, uh, yeah. Nature helps us do that. Yeah.
Mel: I almost wanna say, like at the end, I'm gonna ask you about a tip, but I feel like it's right there. Just like get out in nature,
Jena: right? Yeah. Do it. Yeah. Even if it's 10 minutes a day, just make it a habit. And when you can get out for another 10 minutes or an hour, if you can sneak an hour in, um, you never know what's gonna happen on the other side of that hour.
You might have some brilliant idea come into your mind and, uh, you know, something that's maybe related to your passion or, you know, those big audacious dreams that thank, thank you Mel, for, for helping moms connect with those because that is really like, that makes life interesting. It makes life worth living.
It makes, uh, the world a better place. And if we all lived with your [00:23:00] perspective on really. Working on our gifts and our messages and, and things like this. Oh my gosh. Can you imagine what kind of world we'd be creating for our kids? Holy moly. Just we would change the world.
Mel: We're changing the world world just by being ourselves.
Right? Like our full absolutely. Complete selves. Yes. Not resisting the things that we crave in order to sacrifice over here. Yes. But our actual full and complete selves. Right?
Jena: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If we do that for ourselves and we model that for our kids, then it's a generational gift. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
So, so important. Yeah.
Mel: So tell me more about your journey to get to that point where you realize that this is, whoa, firstly, what is the big audacious dream? And tell me about the journey to get there for you.
Jena: You know, I, I, I have, , I have a big audacious dream, but I feel like there's one even beyond that.
Mm-hmm. Um, so I would say right now it's kind of twofold. Um, One is that [00:24:00] I've got this beautiful business, you know, N is for Nature Play it, it, you know, just founded it. Um, can't remember, maybe it was two years ago now that it became official. But the, my goal for that is really, bringing this information about children's senses and how they experience the world and how we can really create and tailor play and learning landscapes in nature-based of course that really support who, like you just said, who they are as individuals, as unique, um, minds, bodies, and spirits.
And really creating supportive places for these kids to grow and experience their childhood. And I wanna support as many people as possible through, through this work because it's so necessary. And I keep hearing over and over again that this information isn't out there. , and it is, it's out in pieces and parts, but you really have to know how to.
Collect it and bring it all together and translate it into your space. And so I do that for [00:25:00] people. And so just supporting as many people as possible through that. But at the same time, my big audacious dream with my kids is to support them in every way possible so that they, I guess they don't, they're, they're more connected with who they are as individuals and really support them in following their curiosities.
Because in each of our curiosities is that nugget of the next step. What's the next step in my biggest path, in my highest path? And so if I can support them in that from such an early age, holy moly, they're going to just thrive as adults. Like that's really what I want for them. And that's, I see as my biggest job as their mom is to, um, just recognize their uniqueness, their individuality.
Their different experiences in the world and how their emotions need to, um, [00:26:00] I don't know, just how, how to, uh, express their emotions in a healthy way, which they're really good at. They're really good at communicating. So part of the work for me is already done because they're so good at communicating their needs and that sort of thing.
That helps out a lot, a lot. But, um, but yeah, those, right now that's, those are my two big, audacious dreams and it's, um, yeah, I, I wake up feeling grateful every day that, that I'm at where I am in life with the knowledge and experience I have in life. Cuz I've been through all sorts of things. Um, that helped me to do both at the same
Mel: time.
It's awesome. So, That's amazing that both of those are so beautiful, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they're the same thing. I think yes, your n for nature is the how of it. Yeah. But the big dream, what I'm hearing is the big dream is to enable young people, especially to follow their curiosities and, and find Yes.
Their highest path or however you wanna phrase it.
Jena: Right? Yeah. Alright. Thank you for [00:27:00] making it more efficient for me. Totally. I totally agree. Cause it
Mel: is, right. It's, that's that same, it's that same ultimate thing that it seems like you're trying to do and you're, you're beautiful to do and your, your beautiful children are, I'm assuming the inspiration to be able to do that, right?
Jena: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. They are. And they're perfect Guinea pigs. And they love being the Guinea pigs. Like, I'll, I'll have, you know, in my design work, I'll have designed this really fun, uh, you know, nature-based, uh, play area, and they get to go ch test it out before like the kids, the, like the, the kids using it get to.
So they're, they think they've got the, you know, the fast track to the fun places. So yeah, and they've, they've um, given me some constructive criticism as well, like things I can do better and I absolutely listen to them because they're experts, so Yeah. That's
Mel: great. They're like your focus group then, right?
Like that's what people need. If you're testing something that you need to focus group to tell you [00:28:00] what's good. Yeah. That's not so good. Like, mom, come on. Like, that's not
Jena: gonna work. So one of my, the younger daughters, she's. Very honest, uh, very forthcoming with her opinion. She's like, mom, uh, this one you really could have done better.
But there are things that I do like about it.
Mel: Okay.
Jena: I'll take it. I I'll take it. I'll, I'll learn from that.
Mel: I love that. So funny. I love that. Um, so tell us a bit about, do like, teach us a bit, teach us a bit about what is important in this nature space? What makes it work? Yeah. How does it flow? However you wanna Yeah. Take that
Jena: question. So, um, my work as a, as a landscape architect is a little different from other nature-based designers because I really hone in on the sensory experience of the places for the children.
Um, and it really comes down to a, [00:29:00] the reason why I do that is because when you can create a sensory rich environment, That speaks to children's senses in all the right ways, then it really calms their nervous system and puts them in a place where they can achieve a state of flow very easily. Cuz that's a natural childhood state.
They can, I always say they play, they can play to their greatest ability. They can learn to their greatest potential and they can connect in the most deep and meaningful ways that, that they're able to. And so I really like, I'm really focused on sensory systems and I always say that children have, um, they have more than the five physical senses.
Like we all know, like our touch, touch, sight, touch, taste, smell and sound, right? Those are the five classic we all know and love. We're very familiar with them, but children have more physical senses. We all do than just those five. And so there's actually two more that are just as important to children's ability to understand the world, to navigate their environments and to thrive in their daily [00:30:00] lives.
And so, um, the sixth would be our vestibular system. And it's located in our inner ear. And it has to do with our body awareness relative to the gravitational pulse. So our ability to understand, are we right side up, upside down or sideways? That's our vestibular system at, at work. And so swinging and spinning and rocking and um, rolling down a grassy lawn, running and climbing and crawling all of those where the bodies are really, um, moving big body movements and maybe getting off center, um, to really understand where we are, where we're at relative to gravity, that's our vestibular system.
So kids need that to develop really good body confidence and to be able to move their bodies in these big ways and to feel safe in their bodies doing that. So, And then the, the seventh one is really interesting. It has to do with a couple of things. It's called proprioception or [00:31:00] our proprioceptive system.
And so the first thing it has to do with is it's our, it's our body awareness system. So where are my limbs are at relative to my body. Like this is like when you close your eyes and touch your finger to your index finger to your nose, that's your proprioceptive system telling you where your nose is at and where your finger's at, right?
Um, and it also tells us where our bodies are at relative to the things around us in our environments. Um, so a child being able to get drop, you know, parent taking a child to the childhood, uh, to their childcare center, they're able to walk through the door, through the hallway to find their little seat on the mat, take off their shoes.
That's all our proprioceptive system. And it also has to do, the other thing it does is it has to do with the use of force. Or pressure to do activities like coloring with a crayon. So you can only apply so much pressure with your fingers until it breaks. And so an example I always give [00:32:00] is, um, that I'm really thirsty.
There's a paper cup of water in front of me, and it's my proprioceptive system that tells me how to take a drink. So my brain will communicate to my muscles and tendons and joints and ligaments all the way down to my fingertips. Ha Um, the pressure, my fingers need to pick up that paper cup of water without squishing it or without letting it slide through my fingers.
And so like tying one shoes, using zippers, um, using gardening tools, um, picking up watering cans where you're u really putting pressure on the joints. These sorts of pulling a, pulling a wagon, pushing a wheelbarrow. These activities really feed the proprioceptive, stim, uh, proprioceptive, uh, system in really wonderful ways.
And so all kids. Need all sensory systems fed in different ways into different intensities, and you can actually tailor their play and learning environments to support them in all the [00:33:00] ways they need individually, even if you have a big group of kids. So it's really wonderful. Um, and it gives, when, when people really start understanding the senses and how children use their senses to understand their environments and for play and learning and all these wonderful things, it really gives people a new lens to look through to see incredible value in the space they have.
But also it allows them to see maybe where there might be gaps in sensory stimulation. And then they can remedy that through different activities or maybe different accessories for a certain, like maybe they, their mud kitchen needs a few other things, or maybe they need a water play area. Um, so they'll, you can start to see gaps in the sensory value and then you can fill those gaps.
And every child in your care will be able to find exactly what they need to feed their body in all the right ways. I love
Mel: that. And that's, that's new information I think for a lot of [00:34:00] people. And I think until you told me that at another time, it is like, I was like, oh yeah, I guess those, that makes sense.
Or I wouldn't have known the words for it. Right? Sure. And that's where like a hammock feels so good and Oh my gosh, you know? Yes. Oh yeah. The kids love rolling down the hill. That's like their thing to do at our, our center, right? Yeah. And that's, that's glorious. So I'm wondering, like, so what do we do with that?
Um, I'm almost, could we like design together within the limits we have of this conversation? A little garden right now. Like what would that look like? We've got a, yeah, we've got a square space in the back of our house or childcare center. Yep. What do we do with it?
Let's say it's blank. Well, the first,
Jena: yeah, the first big question is, um, It, it focuses on the kids that are gonna be using the space. And so you really need to understand what their needs are, their developmental needs, their sensory needs. Do they have any sensory sensitivities? Some kids, um, they may not like their bare feet on the ground, [00:35:00] which means they have, um, like tactile defensiveness.
They don't like to touch certain things. Um, which, and they're hypersensitive. So you might have to tailor a space or several spaces to that. Um, what are their, whatever your kids love to do, what, what do your kids get lost in and can spend hours in the state of flow doing without any further guidance from an adult.
And so that will give you clues on what spaces, uh, that you can bring to your environment to give children the activities they really want to have. Um, and so, Yeah. Um, I don't know. Do we have a, do we have a imaginary child we wanna work with? You can work with my kids if
Mel: you want. Okay. Yeah. I'll take some, some benefit
Jena: from it.
Yeah. Bring, bring. Well,
Mel: what do you, okay, so we've got an eight year old girl. Um, what were some of your questions? So, really loves,
Jena: uh, yeah. She loves to [00:36:00] do, she
Mel: loves picking up sand, making little balls with it and kind of making it stick and then selling it to someone to throw at something. Um,
Jena: entrepreneurial spirit.
Mel: Yeah, exactly. You see costs a pine cone I think usually, but, um, anything like fairy garden esque, little tiny things that she can move around and do, like little fine motor stuff, uh, loves that. Gets really excited, gets like jittery, excited about stuff like that. Um, loves the swing set. Most recently has actually a vision impairment that has meant, meant that the gross motor stuff skills have taken a longer time.
And those, I can't even remember the words of the last two things you said. Those are, are further behind actually those sensors are catching up and how she knows her body in space. Um, yeah. But she's now loving exploring that now that she has glasses, [00:37:00] um, okay. That are, uh, catching the one eye up to the other essentially.
So
Jena: yeah. Okay.
Mel: Um, so that's probably her. And then I have a five year old boy who's like the type of kid who grabs his bike goes, who literally like, just learned how to ride a two, a two-wheel pedal bike. Um, after his balance one, well, it was officially last year, but really only this year that we properly got it.
And he'll go up and down our long driveway for ages and go off ramps and up thing, like he will take risk, put it that way. Okay. He is very good awareness of his body and where it is in space and falls all the time and rarely hurts himself kind of guy. Nice. Um, and likes, likes things where he gets to do that kind of stuff.
Jump off of things and Okay. Um, yeah,
Jena: that kind of side. Cool. Okay. So just the two? Just the two. [00:38:00] Okay. Um, you can add a dog in there if you want. Well, that's a reality too, right? Forget or for bad. No. Yeah, I have dogs too. Um, okay, so I just jotted down a few ideas, um, that would work for both kids. Because ultimately the goal is we want all kids to play together regardless of ability, diversity, blah, blah blah.
So let's start with your daughter. So when you mentioned she's got a vision impairment, but she loves to swing. So the active swinging, the vestibular system and the um, vi and vision or sight, they are actually interconnected. And so when you're like, think about when you're swinging and you fix your eyes on a certain, um, point on the horizon, so you're actually connecting those two systems by doing that activity.
So just by swinging, she's actually helping her, uh, visual system. Yeah. So I would, that's
Mel: actually her homework. Go on the swing from her [00:39:00] vision therapy. Perfect. I was like, alright, go on the swing.
Jena: Yeah. Yeah. So whether you have one in your yard or maybe you have one, maybe you don't have space for that, but you have one down the road at the park.
Um, I would say get her on the swing as often as she wants to. The ferry garden. Absolutely. And if she's so intrigued and gets jittery by that, then really play that up. Um, just here in my house, my younger daughter really loves ferry gardens as well, and so we've got a couple different pots and I just this spring we, um, constructed a, and you probably thought saw it on my Facebook, this beautiful arbor, you know, it was $300, you know, it was a, it was a investment on Amazon.
Um, and my dad came and helped put it up with the kids, but it's this, um, barber that creates this space. And then we've got some thornless climbing roses starting to climb up it. So, and you know, when it's so hot, the summeral throw shade cloth over the top of it to give her some shade. Um, but really that gives that activity.
Real space in your yard [00:40:00] because it's got that shelter feeling. It's kind of got a cozy feeling and then you can really play up, um, the accessories of the, of the space. Um, mine is kind of ringed with lavender that's just starting to bloom. And so it's, it's becoming a really beautiful space even though it's kind of young and still forming.
So I would say really play up those things that, you know, she really loves to do. Uh, the other thing is, um, with what you mentioned about the sand play and the pine cones, um, you could do a couple things. So you could have a sand play area, but have water next to it, whether it's a hose or a water table or what have you, so that she can combine those two, um, elements.
And, and the play value. And the learning value just goes exponentially when you combine mud and, uh, sand and water. Uh, and then of course have all sorts of different tools she can use. And then the other thing there would be a loose parts play area. And that is where, and loose parts are like things that [00:41:00] kids can manipulate to build and, you know, break them down and rebuild again.
And so outside loose parts are like, um, branches and stones and feathers and seed pods and all these things that they can find in nature to use, uh, to build things or create things. And so loose parts play would be for her. The great thing is, is that your son, maybe he won't be into fairy garden so much, but he'll find a tremendous value in swings.
Um, sand and water play and loose parts. But maybe for him you might throw in some, um, if you've got some access to some stumps, log stumps or something like that, bury those in the ground just a little bit to give 'em some stability and have them at different heights. And those can be his climbing logs and balancing logs and jumping off logs, and maybe you want them next to kind of a bark area or even the lawn area.
Um, and of course, in a, in a, um, childcare setting, there's safety zones and fall zones [00:42:00] that would apply. But in a home application, you can do what you want. You know, just keeping your child safety in mind. So, so that's what I mean. And that would make for a pretty irresistible outdoor place for them. And even if you had, um, a place where kind of nature can be messy or the garden can be messy, where they can go and do whatever they want, that's always a value for kids.
Maybe they make a little nook in there, like a little cozy space, and it's a little hidey hole den. Um, your son with his, you know, if he wants to have some imaginative time or, or or whatever. Um, all kids love those little cozy spaces too. So, so right there, that's a good, that's a good starter. I love that.
That's for your new kiddos.
Mel: Yeah. That's so useful. And I think helpful for anyone really. And it, what comes to mind is, I think there's probably two, maybe there's more, but two pe two type of people are coming to mind that might be listening, right? There might be the [00:43:00] people who just don't know where to start, right?
Yeah. And I think what you just mentioned gave ideas. So then they start to, you know, their creativity can start to move. Okay, think of what my individual kids want and what do they like, and let's do something with that. And then there's the people like me who have so many ideas that it's incredibly overwhelming because I'm like, yeah, wait, let's do this and then this, and then this, and then this, and then this, and then this.
Um, yeah. And I wonder what you would say to those two different types of people.
Jena: Um, I always say to start simply, uh, and really focus on one or maybe two things for now, if you're just getting going. Because it's really easy to, and I'm more of the second person as well. Like I'll have all sorts of ideas and wanna do it all, but then I run outta energy and I only get things halfway done or I finish it and it becomes something, um, maintenance wise that [00:44:00] was, is beyond my capabilities.
And so start small and really start with something that, you know, will be irresistible for your kids and focus on that and get it to a place where it's something that they naturally go to, you know? Yeah. They don't need the iPad right now. They'd rather go outside and play in their ferry garden or climb on their logs or something like that.
Um, because everything that you do, I mean, everything in life takes a little bit of care and maintenance, but when you start small, Then you really get a sense about what that means for you, because it might mean a little extra weeding in your day. It might mean maybe you teach your kids how to do some weeding too.
You know, it's, it's their space as well. Um, but, but really, like that's the sustainable route is just pick, pick one or two things that you know will benefit them, you know, that they will love. And see how that fits for you as well. Because that's the last thing that, you know, as, as busy moms we wanna do is continually add to our [00:45:00] plate.
Right? Uh, on the flip side, it's gonna get you outside more too, you know, playing with your kids. Maybe you're outside and you've got your garden space or something and you can garden while they play. And I always call that like, for parents, that's like parallel play. You're doing your thing that feeds you, they're doing their thing that feeds them, and you're kind of doing it together and there's still connection happening.
Um, and, and so that is the other flip side to doing, uh, natural play and learning for your kids is actually. Helps you as well, because like every night for the last couple weeks I've been, it's been nice, you know, here in Spokane, Washington. So I'll take my book outside and while the kids are doing something, I'll, I'll read a book with my bare feet on the ground and like, it really helps me go to sleep after that.
Um, and so it has a ton of benefit for parents as well, when they have, when their kids are outside more, they have a beautiful space to be in. And you can even add a few things for yourself. Maybe it's that hammock, maybe it's the Adirondack [00:46:00] chair. Um, maybe it's a little garden space for you too. But, you know, think about yourself when you're doing this too.
What would make you wanna go outside more? Yeah. Which is
Mel: what was coming to my mind. A couple things firstly. So firstly, I, I think this is so applicable to moms listening who are. Are starting to work on that big audacious dream. They need the time and space. It's coming up to summer right now. We are in summer holidays and yeah.
We're not gonna get as much me time as we hopefully have gotten through, through the rest of the year. And I can see such value in creating a space like this with your kids that yes, it's like an initial investment of time, money, energy, all those things. And it means that they're gonna, one, wanna go outside and play with you, fill each of your buckets.
Mm-hmm. And you'll be able to step away cuz they're so engrossed in your backyard and the garden mm-hmm. That you can take that space to do what it is you [00:47:00] need to do. And sometimes that might be your, your play outside, like you say, or your work
Jena: outside.
Mel: And it might be that actually I need to come in and have this conversation with you.
Right. Right. While my kid is out playing outside. Mm-hmm. And so I can see real benefit that and a lot of the. Conversations I have with moms is around this guilt that we can feel for needing to take time away from their kids to do their work, quote unquote, um, or to do those things that are, are just outside of their kids or can be easily seen that way, even though they all connect.
Um mm-hmm. And, and this is one way that maybe would help with that because we know we're, we're meeting the needs of our kids. Yeah. We, without us always having to be there, we should definitely be there sometimes, don't get me wrong, but we can also step away and let them meet
Jena: their needs. Yeah. Over there.
How else are they going to, to gain their independence and, um, you know, be able to explore their environments in the [00:48:00] ways that works for them. Yeah. Um, it's helpful for parents to step away from that and just to let their, their kids guide themselves for a while. Yeah. And. It's also okay for kids to be bored.
Mm-hmm. You know, they'll, they'll, they might go outside for a little bit and come back in. Mom, I'm bored when I did that. When I was a little kid, I was told to go pick rocks outta the garden. So I learned real fast not to ask not to say that to my parents because Yeah. Um, and so it's okay for kids to be bored too.
You don't have to entertain them all the time. You shouldn't. Because when kids become bored, that's, I, and I was just talking with this, uh, about this yesterday with somebody that is, that's actually a good thing because that means they've exhausted everything they know how to do every way they know how to use a space.
Um, and it opens the door for their imagination to come out [00:49:00] and to really test things out, try new things. And you know, I was say, and I think it was probably Einstein who said it, that imagination as children's superpower, Or he said something along that line and, um, uh, totally believe it. And it, it's, it lies just on the other side of boredom.
So let your kids be bored. Don't entertain them. Yeah. You know, o only if you, only if you choose to, but really give them a lot of space and time to do things for themselves. Yeah. Um, because that, that, that is just, there's so much on the other side of boredom that really needs to, they need to go through that process to find Yeah.
And it, there's a lot of, um, seeds of who they are as individuals, their interests. They might find new things that really intrigue them. Curiosity and wonder and awe lie on the other side of boredom oftentimes. And, and we as parents, we've experienced that too. Um, so let your [00:50:00] kids go through that. It's, it's a gift.
Yeah, I love that.
Mel: And where it leads my mind is actually to the parent, right? So yes, we experienced that as kids, but how often do we as adults now allow ourselves to be bored? Now that phones
Jena: exist? Rarely, almost never. Yeah, exactly. Because exactly. As soon as I'm
Mel: like, I don't know what to do, you just pick up your phone.
Right. Uhhuh, and I'm so conscious of trying not to do that, but it's really, really hard. Um, and it's not just about technology. We, we do that with something else. If the phone wasn't there, right? Sure, sure. But when do we, as adults allow ourselves to be bored? And if, if at the end of boredom is our creativity and all of that, then actually maybe our first step is be bored.
Right? Yeah. Right. Yeah. And that's kind of scary. That makes me go, oh, I don't wanna be bored. Like, I don't have
Jena: time to be bored. Yeah. I'm wasting time if I'm doing that. Yeah. There's, there's nothing good come coming from this, but there will be. Yeah, there will be. And you have no idea [00:51:00] until you allow yourself that.
And there might be things that you're meant to do in this life that is, that lies on the other side of that time being bored and that time not programmed with something. Um, and so yeah, that's so right. It's so important for us to do that as well. You're right on Mel. And sometimes,
Mel: like, I don't remember the last time I thought I'm bored, but the frustration that comes alongside bored comes.
Yeah. Right? Yeah. And it feels like we're not getting anywhere because of that. Yeah. And actually, you're right. Like it's the other side of that, that we will start to, so for the moms that aren't feel connected, aren't feeling connected to their bigot ice cream, they're like, I have no idea. I know I feel stuck.
I don't feel good. Yeah. It's, it's, I'm not me, like all those things, but in order to get to the other side, we first have to feel that. Right. Yeah. First we have to be frustrated. First we have to allow ourself the space to sit in that Yeah. And be like, oh, this does not feel comfortable. [00:52:00]
Jena: Yeah. And bored doesn't feel comfortable either.
No. And
Mel: there are things you can do within that to like, get yourself mindfulness, get yourself grounded and such. Mm-hmm. To then be able to move on out. Yeah. But it is on the other side. I think that's a great reminder. It's the other side of that boredom and frustration and, and space that we need to take that we will come to
Jena: who knows what.
Yeah. I mean, you can kind of think of it like a portal or a doorway. You have to go through that to, to find what's on the other side for you. And, and when you were talking, it made me, I guess, realize that boredom looks different for adults. We we're bored in our lives and we may not even, um, Be able to put the words to it, we're maybe unsatisfied and maybe we're going through our routines and it's unfulfilling, and that that's boredom.
That's boredom with our lives, and that is a huge indication that something's amiss a little off, [00:53:00] and we need to be curious and explore what that is, because in that is your pathway to your audacious dream.
Mel: Mm-hmm. So like boredom plus curiosity equals big audacious dream.
Jena: Yeah. Equals big things happening for people.
Exactly. And for the world. Right. Because like, yes. My
Mel: big thing, the whole reason I do all of this is yes, I love helping the individuals and the families and the, the people that come away, but it's the fact that if we could all be our best selves, the world will be so much better.
Jena: So much better. Oh my gosh.
Right. Especially moms unrecognizable.
Mel: We have these gifts, this ability, this way of being that will are like the caretakers of the world, right? Yeah. Of nature and the people and the animals and everything in between, right? Yeah. And if we allow ourselves to dream of what we could do to help you mm-hmm.
Ourselves and to be ourselves. Yes. Which will, in order to be ourselves, we also have purpose and meaning, and we're gonna end up s not, serving isn't the right [00:54:00] word, but making a difference elsewhere. Um, yeah. It's just, yeah. It's endless possibilities
Jena: basically. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And uh, I think it's helpful too.
That people realize that your, your audacious dream is made up of a lot of little steps. Mm-hmm. And so you don't have to know the big picture and, and you won't know the big picture because I think our brains are too small to realize what our potential is because we only know so much about our very small lives, but we are so much greater than what we understand through our mental brain.
And so if you can follow your curiosity and just take little steps, like, you know, that, and that's the way I'm going through my life and it's, it's slow and it's, sometimes it feels like a trudge, but then there's these breakthroughs like, holy cow, I didn't know I was going to do this in my life. I had no idea when I was a child that, you know, I would be in this part of my life.
And I'm so surprised and [00:55:00] thankful and, and, uh, curious what the next step is. And so that, that is like, to me, that's the. Probably, at least from my perspective, it's, it's the way, or the only way that I can see to get to my big audacious dream, is just to take these little steps that feel good, that are fun, that, um, can feel surprising, uh, and unexpected.
Um, but that's the beauty in life for me is, is this process and that it can be your, your
Mel: your big audacious dream. So often we can't put words on it. Yeah. Right. And I change my words all the time of what that is. Yeah. Because it is big. And like you say, our brains just can't get that big all like ever, but often, you know?
And my, and I can feel it. I know what it is that I want in the world. I know what my, I can feel it now, but it's taken me a long time to get to that point too. Right? Yeah. Um, but I can feel it now. And I can, and I have some words that I put on it, which for me is [00:56:00] now a together world. That's what I wanna create is a together world.
Yay. And all the house of how to get there. Those are all tiny steps. And I'm gonna switch directions and I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do that, but it doesn't matter cause it's all leading towards this world that I can't create on my own. It will not happen in my lifetime. Which is a weird way to think about it.
I know. But it will, I will help take steps towards
Jena: that. Yes. That's my, you're part of the shift. Exactly. Yeah. And,
Mel: and that's what we need for moms. Okay. So the other question that came to my mind is you were, um, we are gonna finish up soon, but as we were talking about designing this garden space for kids, if you were designing it for a mom listening mm-hmm.
And all of our needs,
Jena: what would that look like? Mm. Oh, for the mom? Yeah. Um. Well, again, I would start with what do you love to do? What do you love to do? Whether it's inside or outside. Do you love to read books? How can you do that outside? [00:57:00] Do you love to cook? Well, what if you had a little edible garden space that you grew, you know, some fun vegetables or whatever it is that you can use in the kitchen.
Um, water, like a little water fountain is always really therapeutic. Um, helps, you know, calm. Um, our nervous system. We love the sound of it. Um, sensory plantings, like, um, I would say lavender. Like lavender is a really well known kind of therapeutic plant because of its fragrance and whatnot. But sensory plants can be all sorts of different things.
Maybe you really like vibrant colors and you plant poppies and delphinium and all sorts of fun things. You know, you just have to have a little space to do this, but it's a space that you can look at and feel good about. Um, and so I would really say it's the same. Process and starting point as it is for when you're designing for kids, what do you love to do?
For you? What would make it irresistible? Put your phone down, or at least on airplane [00:58:00] mode and go outside and just be for a while. So what does that look like? Is it a hammock? Um, so yeah, so I would say it's, you know, take a few minutes to, to really think about something that would make you happy and give you joy and feed your spirit and just go do it and make it small.
Just start with one, one feature for you. And, uh, you'll probably find that the whole family will wanna be out there. It might not be me space for long, but, but you'll, you'll find pockets of me space with it.
Mel: Yeah. Yeah. And it just makes me think of all those sensory needs, right? Like the hammock is the adult version of meeting those sensory needs.
I mean, kids Me too, but it's like the more, um, acceptable quote unquote adult version of it, right? Sure. Yeah. Um, I love it. I actually have one that lives in my office generally, and then in the summer it, I have a little deck just outside my office that it sits in, and that's like where I go and like just, oh, it's perfect in between meetings or things that I have to [00:59:00] do and just reset.
But, um, yeah. Yeah. So that's that's great. I love that. All right. We need to finish things up here. Um, what is one final thing that tip that you would give to
Jena: the moms that are listening? Oh, um,
Man, that, that's a broad question. Mm-hmm. Um, so I, I'm gonna go broad with my answer as well, because I think it would suit them in their lives as, as women and people and, and for their kids. Is that just to find as much time in the day? Well, to be outside for sure. But if you can be present and focus on what you're doing and just bring as much presence and focus to just each and every little thing throughout your day, I think that just in and of itself brings more joy and fulfillment because you're not, your brain and [01:00:00] your systems aren't pulled in so many different directions.
And so if you're with your kids, be with your kids, put the phone down. If you are gardening, be with the garden. If you're working, be with your work and don't be somewhere else because that pulls you apart energetically. And so if you can bring all that back to you and your energy in the here and now, like now is the magical moment.
And so if you can do that, you're going to be able to give 110% to that one thing. And then when you're done, be done with it and move on to the next thing and give that 110% that thing and your life will, will, your life will shift if you can just be present as much as possible. Yeah.
Mel: And I think so often our goal in life, I know my intention at the moment is to just slow down life for our family.
Yeah. But everything that tip, that thing you just described is slowing down. Yeah. Without even changing [01:01:00] anything else. Right. That is slowing down even if you're doing the same thing. And, um, future thinking and past thinking brings on anxiety
Jena: and concern and work. I know. And you can't do anything about either.
And
Mel: I'll put out there that it's really, really hard for us to do this. It's a wonderful tip. And let's, let's take the tiniest steps to do that. So when we catch ourself going off track, cuz we will, cuz we're human. Yeah. Then we bring ourselves back in and say, actually my focus is on this conversation I'm having right now.
Or this Yeah. Or my focus is on this garden, or whatever it might be that we're doing. And um, yeah. I think that is so wonderful. Okay, so tell us where
Jena: we can find you. Oh, okay. Um, my website is n n is for nature play.com. And, um, there's actually a free download that, um, folks can get to have that first starting point, like what are my kids' interests in love, et cetera, to get them going on, on creating a play and learning landscape.
Um, you can also find me on Facebook, just search [01:02:00] for n is for Nature Play. I have a business page. And then I would invite your listeners to, um, join my, I had just started, um, maybe a month ago, two months ago. Uh, private Facebook group called Sensory Rich Nature Play. Uh, they can search for that and join, and that's where kind of all the fun stuff's happening.
Um, lots of ideas, lots of information, resources, et cetera for, for supporting folks in creating sensory rich, uh, environments for, for kids and themselves. So that's amazing. Yeah, that's my main spots. I
Mel: love it. Thank you for sharing that. And please do go and check out what Jenna is doing. I can see her right now while I'm talking to her.
And she has this beautiful image in her background of her garden and what she's created. And you can see those images on the Facebook page and definitely the group. Um, yep. And I'm part of them and I highly recommend checking that out to get your ideas flowing, whether you are a mom, well, a lot of you will be moms, but also whether you work in a [01:03:00] childcare setting, um, or you're just looking for yourself like, I need to create a space in my garden, uh, for me.
Yeah. Then all of the above. It's such a, such a welcoming space in there and full of great info and inspiration. So thank you Jenna for joining us today and , I think we might have to come back to get some more detail about tons of other things on the future.
Jena: Yeah, absolutely. I had so much fun talking with you.
Always amazing.
I just love talking to Jenna about her big audacious dreams. And. How that looks for her. There's a couple things that really stand out to me in what she was talking about. One is that being a landscape architect? Never even, I've never thought about the fact that. Someone. Designs the. Places that our children play and have so much intention behind it. And I love the intention that [01:04:00] clearly is behind everything that Jenna does. And.
Taking that into people's gardens and. Now with her work and her big dream, basically creating this job through her business. That is.
Helping. Uh, families and. Childcare centers to really design a space that makes a difference to their kids. And that fits really well brings in that nature. Is just incredible. I think that's so awesome. And such a good example of how we can create a job based on our experience. That is perfect for us.
And the other thing I really love about what Jenna said is learning about these different senses that we have. And it's more than our touch and smell and. Hearing and such. Right. And I think that's so important as a mom. I find it absolutely fascinating too. I think about [01:05:00] how I can. Best create a space for my children, but also for myself. Right.
So like, there's a reason I have a hammock in my space in my office because sometimes I just really feel the need to be kind of hugged in a lie down position. And. Um, so I go in there and I don't want to swing it. Uh, because my, I just get dizzy. And how about as a kid? I do. And my kids come in and my son actually flips himself upside down on it. And.
Anyways, the point is, I think is really, really amazing. Information that jen has given us there and i am so excited that she was able to share that with all of you.
I do hope that you've taken something away from this conversation here today. In terms of your kids' needs and designing their spaces, but also your own needs. And designing your spaces. As well as just [01:06:00] having inspiration from another mom who has really created the life that works best for her and her family.
And you can do that too.
If you liked this episode, then you must like nature. And the science shows us that nature can make a positive influence on our emotions and life. So, if you liked this episode, listen to the last one. And take part in our permission to notice nature 10 day challenge. All you have to do is just notice the nature around you each day and take a picture of something you see in nature. Even if it's the plant sitting behind you at your desk. Then post it with.
Hashtag. Permission to notice nature on Facebook or Instagram and join the party. And just start to feel. Better. Let's See you there
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